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Ireland's flyhalf versus Scotland?

Improve you're grammar man, I need to read you're posts two or three times to comprehend them. :p

The hate for O'Gara on this forum is unbelievable. I'm not justifying his selection because I think Deccie and my Dad are the only ones who could but I think that people are so negative towards him that if by some miracle he plays well on Sunday people will still be calling for his head on a plate. O'Gara is the one player in this country that gets an unbelievable amount of stick despite being one of our best ever players, he's hardly going to decline opurtunities to play for Ireland when their being handed to him.

As for O'Donnell he's a bit too inconsistent for my liking and for all the insults that Jamie "Houdini" Heaslip gets for drifting in and out of games from Munster fans, they talk up one of their own players who does exactly the same thing! I'd like to see him play for eighty minutes solidly a few times before giving him an international cap.

I really hope that Madigan starts attacking O'Gara's and Jackson's ankles during this week because I'd love to see him start. He's one of the most overlooked players in Irish rugby.

Bit rich? :p
 
Improve you're grammar man, I need to read you're posts two or three times to comprehend them. :p

The hate for O'Gara on this forum is unbelievable. I'm not justifying his selection because I think Deccie and my Dad are the only ones who could but I think that people are so negative towards him that if by some miracle he plays well on Sunday people will still be calling for his head on a plate. O'Gara is the one player in this country that gets an unbelievable amount of stick despite being one of our best ever players, he's hardly going to decline opurtunities to play for Ireland when their being handed to him.

As for O'Donnell he's a bit too inconsistent for my liking and for all the insults that Jamie "Houdini" Heaslip gets for drifting in and out of games from Munster fans, they talk up one of their own players who does exactly the same thing! I'd like to see him play for eighty minutes solidly a few times before giving him an international cap.

I really hope that Madigan starts attacking O'Gara's and Jackson's ankles during this week because I'd love to see him start. He's one of the most overlooked players in Irish rugby.
I wouldn't say O'Donnell is similar to Heaslip at all. He's more similar to "young" Heaslip. IE Big explosive ball carrier, although I'm sure he'd appreciate the comparison to 3 time Heineken Cup Winner, and Irish captain Jamie Heaslip.
 
I wouldn't say O'Donnell is similar to Heaslip at all. He's more similar to "young" Heaslip. IE Big explosive ball carrier, although I'm sure he'd appreciate the comparison to 3 time Heineken Cup Winner, and Irish captain Jamie Heaslip.

I meant more in the way in which he drifts in and out of games, being almost invisible at times, something that many Munster fans say about Heaslip with no evidence because they don't like him.
 
Improve your grammar man, I need to read you're posts two or three times to comprehend them. :p

The hate for O'Gara on this forum is unbelievable. I'm not justifying his selection because I think Deccie and my Dad are the only ones who could but I think that people are so negative towards him that if by some miracle he plays well on Sunday people will still be calling for his head on a plate. O'Gara is the one player in this country that gets an unbelievable amount of stick despite being one of our best ever players, he's hardly going to decline opurtunities to play for Ireland when their being handed to him.

As for O'Donnell he's a bit too inconsistent for my liking and for all the insults that Jamie "Houdini" Heaslip gets for drifting in and out of games from Munster fans, they talk up one of their own players who does exactly the same thing! I'd like to see him play for eighty minutes solidly a few times before giving him an international cap.

I really hope that Madigan starts attacking O'Gara's and Jackson's ankles during this week because I'd love to see him start. He's one of the most overlooked players in Irish rugby.


The first half of this post ****** me off no end. One of our greatest out halves ever? Please. Considering that this is a country that has produced Jack Kyle, Tony Ward, Ollie Campbell and Mike Gibson just to name a few I take massive offense to that. He couldn't tackle or threaten the line. A fine club player, but the only reason he was able to survive at international level was due to the quite frankly astonishing work of David Wallace throughout the entirety of his career. This is evidenced be two facts; a) the fact that Wally was far more prominent than usual on the 09 Lions tour when he didn't have to babysit Rog and won credit from all circles for his performances dislodging the great Martyn Williams no less and b) by the fact that following Wally's injury and subsequent retirement O'Gara's form took a huge nosedive. Sexton is at least as good a player as Rog was at the height of his powers, while David Humphreys probably should have stayed in the Ireland team longer.
 
Improve your grammar man, I need to read you're posts two or three times to comprehend them. :p

The hate for O'Gara on this forum is unbelievable. I'm not justifying his selection because I think Deccie and my Dad are the only ones who could but I think that people are so negative towards him that if by some miracle he plays well on Sunday people will still be calling for his head on a plate. O'Gara is the one player in this country that gets an unbelievable amount of stick despite being one of our best ever players, he's hardly going to decline opurtunities to play for Ireland when their being handed to him.

As for O'Donnell he's a bit too inconsistent for my liking and for all the insults that Jamie "Houdini" Heaslip gets for drifting in and out of games from Munster fans, they talk up one of their own players who does exactly the same thing! I'd like to see him play for eighty minutes solidly a few times before giving him an international cap.

I really hope that Madigan starts attacking O'Gara's and Jackson's ankles during this week because I'd love to see him start. He's one of the most overlooked players in Irish rugby.

You're an eejit can you comprehend that?

I don't blame RO'G for playing I blame Kidney for picking him. The fact of the matter is that since probably the WC QF at least RO'G hasn't been good enough; he was one players selection who I tried to justify but I no longer can.
 
The first half of this post ****** me off no end. One of our greatest out halves ever? Please. Considering that this is a country that has produced Jack Kyle, Tony Ward, Ollie Campbell and Mike Gibson just to name a few I take massive offense to that. He couldn't tackle or threaten the line. A fine club player, but the only reason he was able to survive at international level was due to the quite frankly astonishing work of David Wallace throughout the entirety of his career. This is evidenced be two facts; a) the fact that Wally was far more prominent than usual on the 09 Lions tour when he didn't have to babysit Rog and won credit from all circles for his performances dislodging the great Martyn Williams no less and b) by the fact that following Wally's injury and subsequent retirement O'Gara's form took a huge nosedive. Sexton is at least as good a player as Rog was at the height of his powers, while David Humphreys probably should have stayed in the Ireland team longer.

Ronan O'Gara has been one of Ireland's most important and better players from the last 15 years. A fine club player? A fine club player doesn't go on three Lions tours, scores over 1000 international points, is the top scorer in the Heineken cup and also was awarded best Heineken cup player of all time. He has won countless games for Ireland single handed and dragged the team through along with O'Driscoll and O'Connell. Threatening the line is not part of his game but he did play in an Ireland backline that scored some unbelievable tries and you cannot say he wasn't involved in them. The stick O'Gara gets in Leinster is ridiculous considering that without him Ireland would have one, or 50%, less Grand slams and one or two less triple crowns. You've made him out to be an average player when he was probably the best tactical kicker in the world in his prime and was third overall only behind Jonny Wilkinson and Dan Carter two of the best to ever play the game. An average player does not have a grand slam, 2 Heineken cup winners medals, two more losers medals and a handful of triple crowns. For what he was, what he did and what he acheived it is hard not to say that O'Gara was one of our best 10's ever.
 
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Ronan O'Gara has been one of Ireland's most important and better players from the last 15 years. A fine club player? A fine club player doesn't go on three Lions tours, scores over 1000 international points, is the top scorer in the Heineken cup and also was awarded best Heineken cup player of all time. He has one countless games for Ireland single handed and dragged the team through along with O'Driscoll and O'Connell. Threatening the line is not part of his game but he did play in an Ireland backline that scored some unbelievable tries and you cannot say he wasn't involved in them. The stick O'Gara gets in Leinster is ridiculous considering that without him Ireland would have one, or 50%, less Grand slams and one or two less triple crowns. You've made him out to be an average player when he was probably the best tactical kicker in the world in his prime and was third overall only behind Jonny Wilkinson and Dan Carter two of the best to ever play the game. An average player does not have a grand slam, 2 Heineken cup winners medals, two more losers medals and a handful of triple crowns. For what he was, what he did and what he acheived it is hard not to say that O'Gara was one of our best 10's ever.

Even after the edit?
 
O'Gara's a bit of a gobshite, but he was a class player. Saying otherwise is just total blindness. He's a shocking defender without a doubt, but he was absolutely lethal from the boot, and always a tricky player. As Cmac said, O'Gara was one of the best at what he did, although I will agree he was babysat by David Wallace.
 
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Ronan O'Gara has been one of Ireland's most important and better players from the last 15 years.

Well this doesn't equate to best by any means. His importance was only brought about by the failure of the Irish provincial setup to produce another player of any sort of standard.

A fine club player? A fine club player doesn't go on three Lions tours scores over 1000 international points is the top scorer in the Heineken cup and also was awarded best Heineken cup player of all time.

Again, the points thing comes from being an automatic pick at 10 internationally due to a lack of options. He did tour three times with the Lions that's true, with his most memorable contributions being getting the **** kicked out of him in Australia, tackling his own player in New Zealand (with the Kiwi commentators saying it was probably his first tackle of the tour, just to give you a view of how he was held internationally), and costing the Lions 10 points in the final 10 minutes of the second test in South Africa, and eventually the tour. He never rose above 2nd choice (was usually 3rd), and when you consider that his competition came from the likes of Dan Parks and Andy Goode you can see why he toured. I wouldn't necessarily use that as a benchmark. As for the Heineken Cup award, I was pretty much against that from the time it was given out. O'Gara had the easiest job in European club rugby. That's not to say he didn't do it well, but there are very few decent flyhalves who wouldn't have looked excellent behind that pack. Andy Goode looked excellent behind the Leicester pack, but was muck.

He has one countless games for Ireland single handed and dragged the team through along with O'Driscoll and O'Connell.

There are few enough games where I'd say he had the same impact that O'Driscoll and to a lesser extent O'Connell had in their more 'grab the game by the balls' moments. As often as not, when the going got tough, the red face came out and Rog got shakey - the entire 09' grnad slam campaign being as good an example as any.


Threatening the line is not part of his game but he did play in an Ireland backline that scored some unbelievable tries and you cannot say he wasn't involved in them.
That really doesn't float tbh. He played inside a centre that won the 2005 6 Nations player of the year award and our greatest player of all time. Being part of a good backline does not make you a good player. A good defence knew that they could essentially ignore O'Gara in attack and focus on our centres and outside backs, making things much harder for them.

The stick O'Gara gets in Leinster is ridiculous considering that without him Ireland would have one, or 50%, less Grand slams and one or two less triple crowns.

Again, he was very poor in 2009. And I couldn't give a smeg about Triple Crowns in all honesty.

You've made him out to be an average player when he was probably the best tactical kicker in the world in his prime and was third only behind Jonny Wilkinson and Dan Carter two of the best to ever play the game.

He was an awful defender. He was a poor runner. He was an okay passer. Being a very good tactical kicker doesn't make up for those flaws I'm afraid. On the international stage he was an average player. Stephen Jones will never be considered one of the great Welsh outhalves, yet he was always a step above Rog. When the two competed for a Lions shirt, it wasn't even a contest. I'd put him on a level with someone like Charlie Hodgeson or Toby Flood, probably being slightly more consistent than the former.

An average player does not have a grand slam, 2 Heineken cup winners medals, two more losers medals and a handful of triple crowns. For what he was, what he did and what he acheived it is hard not to say that O'Gara was one of our best 10's ever.

A team's achievements does not reflect the achievements of the individual. Stephen Donald has a World Cup medal and he's bloody useless. In terms of overall ability and nothing else, he wouldn't be in my top 5 Irish 10's.
 
The hate for O'Gara on this forum is unbelievable.

To be fair. It's not just this forum, O'Gara is not particularly popular anywhere really outside Munster these days. He comes across as a bit of a smug twat sometimes and many are still annoyed at him for costing the 2009 Lions series and now I would say the vast majority in England, Wales or Scotland don't like him. Even Tom Shanklin was making fun of him on S4C last weekend.

Whilst in Ireland, it seems that Kidney continuing to select him in 2012 and now into 2013 despite some his form going down dramatically (just see his performance against the Scarlets last Saturday) is hurting his reputation.

The first half of this post ****** me off no end. One of our greatest out halves ever? Please. Considering that this is a country that has produced Jack Kyle, Tony Ward, Ollie Campbell and Mike Gibson just to name a few I take massive offense to that. He couldn't tackle or threaten the line. A fine club player, but the only reason he was able to survive at international level was due to the quite frankly astonishing work of David Wallace throughout the entirety of his career. This is evidenced be two facts; a) the fact that Wally was far more prominent than usual on the 09 Lions tour when he didn't have to babysit Rog and won credit from all circles for his performances dislodging the great Martyn Williams no less and b) by the fact that following Wally's injury and subsequent retirement O'Gara's form took a huge nosedive. Sexton is at least as good a player as Rog was at the height of his powers, while David Humphreys probably should have stayed in the Ireland team longer.

Very interesting insight. I hadn't thought of it, but you're right, Wallace retiring has made a big difference. Perhaps is Wallace had the stronger Sexton who can look after himself better through most of his career, he might have had the plaudits that Warburton got in 2011 or Robshaw is getting now.

Talking of David Humphreys, I was watching an old match of Ireland vs New Zealand in 2001 and hadn't realised quite how good he was (or at least was that day), and helped Ireland into a 14 point lead and Ireland led up until 55 minutes. Must be one of the best players never to have got on a Lions tour.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q32PHkL1U-c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
 
O'Gara is the one player in this country that gets an unbelievable amount of stick despite being one of our best ever players, he's hardly going to decline opurtunities to play for Ireland when their being handed to him.
Does being a high quality player from 2004-2008 preclude his performances from 2010 on from being subject to criticism?

O'Gara made the most of his ability and at his best was hugely important for province and country. I think his diminishing abilities should be subject to scrutiny though. He's a defensive liability and the area of his game that was once a strength, tactical kicking, is now no more than average. He's in the squad on the strength of past performances, not current form.
 
The first half of this post ****** me off no end. One of our greatest out halves ever? Please. Considering that this is a country that has produced Jack Kyle, Tony Ward, Ollie Campbell and Mike Gibson just to name a few I take massive offense to that. He couldn't tackle or threaten the line. A fine club player, but the only reason he was able to survive at international level was due to the quite frankly astonishing work of David Wallace throughout the entirety of his career. This is evidenced be two facts; a) the fact that Wally was far more prominent than usual on the 09 Lions tour when he didn't have to babysit Rog and won credit from all circles for his performances dislodging the great Martyn Williams no less and b) by the fact that following Wally's injury and subsequent retirement O'Gara's form took a huge nosedive. Sexton is at least as good a player as Rog was at the height of his powers, while David Humphreys probably should have stayed in the Ireland team longer.


I agree with you in the sense that ROG is incredibly overrated but the evidence you put forward, while valid is a little bit assumptive. I don't think you can deny that ROG's kicking skills were invaluable during particularly considering the style of rugby at prior to 2009. David Wallace very much aided ROG but to suggest this is the cornerstone of ROG's success is unfair.

However we have to look at ROG now and in the present his level of skill, intensity and pace is way off the mark needed for international games. To me it's a no brainer, Jackson, Madigan and Keatley all offer more to the Irish team and thus should be ahead of O'Gara. Clearly Kidney see's this very differently!

@cmac

I don't think there is overwhelming hate for ROG in this forum, rather there is vast hate towards the continued selection of O'Gara over players who currently offer far more to the Irish squad and are prospects in there own right.
 
The Stephen Donald example is terrible. There's a difference between coming on in the last ten minutes to score a penalty and kicking Munster to two Heineken Cup victories. Of course O'Gara's had shockers, he's been playing professional rugby since 1997, and his recent performances can't really be judged. He's past it at this stage. ROG was brilliant under stress time and time again. The amount of one or two point victories ROG has kicked us to over his career is huge. Once again, he hasn't justified a place on this team, but I really can't agree that he hasn't contributed greatly to Munster and Ireland in the past.
 
The Stephen Donald example is terrible. There's a difference between coming on in the last ten minutes to score a penalty and kicking Munster to two Heineken Cup victories. Of course O'Gara's had shockers, he's been playing professional rugby since 1997, and his recent performances can't really be judged. He's past it at this stage. ROG was brilliant under stress time and time again. The amount of one or two point victories ROG has kicked us to over his career is huge. Once again, he hasn't justified a place on this team, but I really can't agree that he hasn't contributed greatly to Munster and Ireland in the past.


Cmac said that an average player can't win x,y & z. I used Stephen Donald as an example that an average player can win those sort of competitions. Perfectly valid example.


People seem to be missing the point here, throwing around terms like 'great servant' and 'contributed greatly.' I never said he didn't. But an awful lot of what he accomplished was by default. There was literally no one else to play 10. Sure he kicked goals in some tight games, but any kicker with a >80% average would have. Those penalties were by and large won by an incredibly talented Munster pack, who I feel don't get anywhere near the credit they deserve. That was what Munster, and to a slightly (very slightly) lesser extent Ireland's, success in the mid part of the last decade was built on. But the man who puts the points on the board will always get more credit than the guys who earned them.
 
Does being a high quality player from 2004-2008 preclude his performances from 2010 on from being subject to criticism?

O'Gara made the most of his ability and at his best was hugely important for province and country. I think his diminishing abilities should be subject to scrutiny though. He's a defensive liability and the area of his game that was once a strength, tactical kicking, is now no more than average. He's in the squad on the strength of past performances, not current form.

I agree that currently he should be dropped and I also think he should have retired at the end of last year but some people have chosen to forget his previous performances because he's playing bad now and is a bit of a gobshite and also I get the feeling that people want to see him fail and play poorly on Sunday to throw out insults towards him and I think it's ridiculous. I'd argue that he was a class player up until '10-'11 he just had an unbelievable run of form between '04 and '08 and before that he could also be great but lacked a bit of nerve at times.

Well this doesn't equate to best by any means. His importance was only brought about by the failure of the Irish provincial setup to produce another player of any sort of standard.



Again, the points thing comes from being an automatic pick at 10 internationally due to a lack of options. He did tour three times with the Lions that's true, with his most memorable contributions being getting the **** kicked out of him in Australia, tackling his own player in New Zealand (with the Kiwi commentators saying it was probably his first tackle of the tour, just to give you a view of how he was held internationally), and costing the Lions 10 points in the final 10 minutes of the second test in South Africa, and eventually the tour. He never rose above 2nd choice (was usually 3rd), and when you consider that his competition came from the likes of Dan Parks and Andy Goode you can see why he toured. I wouldn't necessarily use that as a benchmark. As for the Heineken Cup award, I was pretty much against that from the time it was given out. O'Gara had the easiest job in European club rugby. That's not to say he didn't do it well, but there are very few decent flyhalves who wouldn't have looked excellent behind that pack. Andy Goode looked excellent behind the Leicester pack, but was muck.



There are few enough games where I'd say he had the same impact that O'Driscoll and to a lesser extent O'Connell had in their more 'grab the game by the balls' moments. As often as not, when the going got tough, the red face came out and Rog got shakey - the entire 09' grnad slam campaign being as good an example as any.



That really doesn't float tbh. He played inside a centre that won the 2005 6 Nations player of the year award and our greatest player of all time. Being part of a good backline does not make you a good player. A good defence knew that they could essentially ignore O'Gara in attack and focus on our centres and outside backs, making things much harder for them.



Again, he was very poor in 2009. And I couldn't give a smeg about Triple Crowns in all honesty.



He was an awful defender. He was a poor runner. He was an okay passer. Being a very good tactical kicker doesn't make up for those flaws I'm afraid. On the international stage he was an average player. Stephen Jones will never be considered one of the great Welsh outhalves, yet he was always a step above Rog. When the two competed for a Lions shirt, it wasn't even a contest. I'd put him on a level with someone like Charlie Hodgeson or Toby Flood, probably being slightly more consistent than the former.



A team's achievements does not reflect the achievements of the individual. Stephen Donald has a World Cup medal and he's bloody useless. In terms of overall ability and nothing else, he wouldn't be in my top 5 Irish 10's.
I don't think there's any point arguing this with you, you don't like him never had and aren't giving him anywhere near the credit he deserves. And had there not been a grand slam in '09 and there would not have been with Paddy Wallace at 10 Triple crowns would be a lot more important.
I agree with you in the sense that ROG is incredibly overrated but the evidence you put forward, while valid is a little bit assumptive. I don't think you can deny that ROG's kicking skills were invaluable during particularly considering the style of rugby at prior to 2009. David Wallace very much aided ROG but to suggest this is the cornerstone of ROG's success is unfair.

However we have to look at ROG now and in the present his level of skill, intensity and pace is way off the mark needed for international games. To me it's a no brainer, Jackson, Madigan and Keatley all offer more to the Irish team and thus should be ahead of O'Gara. Clearly Kidney see's this very differently!

@cmac

I don't think there is overwhelming hate for ROG in this forum, rather there is vast hate towards the continued selection of O'Gara over players who currently offer far more to the Irish squad and are prospects in there own right.

I agree with everything you're saying but people on this forum, Leinster fans especially, seem to have him on their list of mortal enemies and are completely disregarding his career.
 
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The Stephen Donald example is terrible. There's a difference between coming on in the last ten minutes to score a penalty and kicking Munster to two Heineken Cup victories. Of course O'Gara's had shockers, he's been playing professional rugby since 1997, and his recent performances can't really be judged. He's past it at this stage. ROG was brilliant under stress time and time again. The amount of one or two point victories ROG has kicked us to over his career is huge. Once again, he hasn't justified a place on this team, but I really can't agree that he hasn't contributed greatly to Munster and Ireland in the past.


Sorry...
http://youtu.be/lb33CFJTpnU?t=2h21m22s
 
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