Ireland v France

[Charles]

Hey Cooky what is the ref supposed to do when the tackler releases the player and the player uses the occasion to get up and go forward again?

Happened at least once in yesterdays game...

 

[dullonien]

Hey Cooky what is the ref supposed to do when the tackler releases the player and the player uses the occasion to get up and go forward again?

Happened at least once in yesterdays game...

It's basically illegal, it all depends on the ref, and if he deemed that the tackle was complete or not.

It's been happeneing in not just in this game, but in many other games aswell. I don't personally like it, as many times the player has been tackled and released as the law asks them to, then the tackled player just get's up and carries on. At one point, one of the Irish players literally crawled along the floor after being initially tackled, yet the ref did nothing. If refs are going to be strict on the defender releasing the player immediately, they have also gotta be prepared to penalise attackers for getting up and carrying on afterwards.

 

[smartcooky]

Hey Cooky what is the ref supposed to do when the tackler releases the player and the player uses the occasion to get up and go forward again?

Happened at least once in yesterdays game...

Its about judgment & timing, and sometimes the referee can get it wrong.

In the case where the ball carrier is brought to ground by an opponent, but the opponent is not holding onto him when he hits the ground, e.g. an ankle tap, then no tackle has taken place, and Law 14 applies.

<div style="border: 2px solid black; padding: 10px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 240); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Law 14 BALL ON THE GROUND, NO TACKLE

DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled. The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue. A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised. A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.

14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
</div>
In the case where the tackler is still holding the ball carrier as he hits the ground, then its a tackle so Law 15 (The Tackle Law) applies, and if the player gets back up without releasing the ball first, he should be penalised.

The problem for the referee is that it can be difficult to judge whether the tackler was still holding on when the ball carrier hit the ground.

If they don't see it, they cannot rule it.

 

[Logorrhea]

Chabal coming on, Ireland booing him

That was the French fans making that noise. Some French version of Beeeaassst me thinks. Moore made the same assumption on the BBC commentary.

Ireland were dropping almost every scrum imo. France should have been awarded almost every penalty scrum time, but Pearson for some reason thought Ireland can actually scrummage!

Same old pre-conceived assumptions thrown out time after time. Ireland were fairly solid in the scrum and actually got the shove on the French scrum a few times. Ross has never had a problem with Domingo and this was the case here too.

Instead of looking for reasons to penalise the Irish scrum (like Poite does) just look at it with a neutral eye. We are not a powerhouse, but with Ross in there, we can lock it down.

As for the game itself. France were poor, Ireland were worse. Didnt see too many positives really.

I read a telling line in one of the other forums. Someone asked how many English players would make it into the Irish team at the moment (could equally apply to French) and the answer was none ............... because Declan Kidney would never make those changes.

Sums it up for me. Four years ago the 15 starters were picked months in advance, pretty much the same now.

Hey Cooky what is the ref supposed to do when the tackler releases the player and the player uses the occasion to get up and go forward again?

DOC was a blatant stupid penalty. He held Para and the ball and didnt allow Parra to turn and place it. The Heaslip incidenty was fair game, the French did not hold him in the tackle (it was not an intentional release, lets not pretend it was) so he could move on. Poor defense from the French.

 

[gingergenius]

Log, Ross had his face in the ground in so many of those scrums yesterday it was getting silly. As I said before, I thought Domingo vs Ross yesterday was much more of a mismatch than Mas vs Healy (and I hate Cian Healy).

 

[Logorrhea]

Based on what? I hear what you are all saying, and I understand you are all in agreement that Ireland = bad, France = good but aside from one or two scrums when we did get shunted back (after Cian Healy went off weirdly enough) there is no evidence of it.

Mas had Healy in all sorts of trouble, but Ross and Best held their own at our tighthead. Blaming the tighthead for collapsing the scrum seems a bit random. Especially against someine like Domingo who scrummages around his ankles.

Last week you all told Ireland to stop complaining about the ref and accept we have a shite scrum. This week you all start complaining about the ref because he didnt think we have a shite scrum. You made your minds up sometime last year me thinks when Hayes was still first choice tight head. Now i'm not saying Ireland are a scrummaging powerhouse, but we are a lot stronger then we have been in the past. None of you are open to seeing that, your minds are already made up.

 

[munstermuffin]

Log I can agree with that statement

 

[gingergenius]

Based on what? I hear what you are all saying, and I understand you are all in agreement that Ireland = bad, France = good but aside from one or two scrums when we did get shunted back (after Cian Healy went off weirdly enough) there is no evidence of it.

Mas had Healy in all sorts of trouble, but Ross and Best held their own at our tighthead. Blaming the tighthead for collapsing the scrum seems a bit random. Especially against someine like Domingo who scrummages around his ankles.

Last week you all told Ireland to stop complaining about the ref and accept we have a shite scrum. This week you all start complaining about the ref because he didnt think we have a shite scrum. You made your minds up sometime last year me thinks when Hayes was still first choice tight head. Now i'm not saying Ireland are a scrummaging powerhouse, but we are a lot stronger then we have been in the past. None of you are open to seeing that, your minds are already made up.

Well I can't deny that my mind is already made up.

But, my mind's made up because everytime I see Ireland play, they're either going backwards or they should be but the ref's being an idiot.

Remember back in 2008 (I think it was) when England played Australia? The Aussies got about a million penalties at the scrum, totally against the form book and totally against what was happening in the game. The referee completely ****** up.

To me, the scrum is a vital part of rugby union - thus if one team has an obvious advantage (in other words shoving the opposition pack into last week), then they should bloody well get credit for it. Which is why I get very cross when the scrum is reffereed so poorly, the same way it's frustrating to see an adventurous team scuppered by shite reffing at the breakdown.

And frankly, yesterday's game was a case in point. Ireland did hold their own in a few scrums. Not the majority. I think it was the first or 2nd scrum of the game, in the French 22. Ireland collapsed it, but since the French had already got the ball, the ref allowed play to continue rather than blowing for a penalty, a free kick or at least giving France advantage. France then ****** up and Ireland scored from the turnover. This kind of permissivenesss to Irish collapses happened throughout the game, either they were ignored or the scrum was reset. And the amount that Ireland were pushed backwards on some occasions - that shouldn't happen at this level.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ginger only thing I'll say is Ireland are and have been dreadful for a while at scrum so no complaints there but how can we improve scrum when the crouch touch pause etc is too long and refs differ also it isn't easy when each ref interprets the scrum different like and this isn't just for Irelands sake but IRB need to get all refs together and have them all singing off same hymn sheet

 

[TRF_Olyy]

but how can we improve scrum when the crouch touch pause etc is too long and refs differ also it isn't easy when each ref interprets the scrum different like and this isn't just for Irelands sake but IRB need to get all refs together and have them all singing off same hymn sheet

Most other teams manage - Look at the England/Italy match - yes there was a few collapsed scrums but the majority were fine

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The sensible thing for the IRB to do is ask current international forwards what they would like to see being done instead of guessing.

 

[Logorrhea]

they're either going backwards or they should be but the ref's being an idiot.

To me, the scrum is a vital part of rugby union....................................... I get very cross when the scrum is reffereed so poorly.

If you had even tried to look at Poites performances objectively last week (which you used to be able to do) i'd accept either of those points above but you didnt and wouldnt. You didnt give a shite about the purity of the scrum or how the referee actually decided to ping us, once the ref matched your pre-conceived idea of how Ireland scrumaged 12 months ago.

You assume our tighthead is collapsing (based on some preconceived idea that domingo is a god) but you dont seem to care that Ross has put Domingo to the bench early three times (if you include Sunday) this season. Even Domingo himself has spoken of how difficult it is to get on top of him, but you are sure we should be pinged.

Again, I'm not saying Ireland are world beaters I'm just saying that with a proper tight head in there, we are rapidly improving. When we learn to scrum as an eight like Leinster, we'll be even more solid. We are never going to rip teams to shreds, but we wont be retreating either.

Most other teams manage

So the time scrummaging is taking, and the problems it is causing in the game is down to just a few weak teams? My thinks not.

 

[Teh Mite]

The irish tighthead was collapsing because he was the one laying face down EVERY TIME the scrum collapsed. It's not rocket science. You fall on your face, belly down, while your opposite number is still on their feet, you're the one who's gone down.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Also if the binding is short arm and not long arm ... will also give you a clear indication on who is bringing it down

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm not saying Ireland would be better if the IRB fixed scrum because we wouldn't. I just want scrums to be all judged fairly and not 1 week a ref sayiny something ok and then next week it a sin. I'm not saying this was case in match yesterday either but that it has to be sorted on world basis before World Cup

 

[gingergenius]

I need say no more than Bullitt has just now. Don't lay so much store by the fact that Ross is now in the side - he's a decent club level 3 but still not of international quality. The only other 6N team he'd get near is Scotland, and that's because God has made Murray forget how to scrummage.

 

[Logorrhea]

I need say no more

Didnt think so

 

[shtove]

I hate Tomas O'Leary. That aside, we were grand.


ROG is muck too actually, bloody lucky he didn't butcher that try chance.

I think ROG called the move on the right when everyone was looking left. So at least he read the defence after 3 minutes of battering at the line.

 

[talkingrugbyunion]

Ireland's error count was terrible, I analysed the match on my website feel free to take a look http://talkingrugbyunion.co.uk

 

[coonor]

It was great to see a good atmosphere at Landsdowne. There seemed to be alot of French and Irish shouting and singing which was great to see after a dire atmosphere in the autumn. Just wandering why there were so many French fans and do the Irish sing anything else other that the Fields? Is Molly Malone sung?