Ireland Squad for North American Tour

[Leonormous Boozer]

What players do you think should have got more games?

Cave should have been 13 ahead of Early when BOD was out, Gilroy should have been in earlier than Zebo because he was more impressive last season but Zebo went to NZ and Touhy should have been used more, he could have really improved with international experience and be a great asset to the team currently. These are the ones that spring to mind at the moment, I'm sure there are more examples.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I'd go as far as saying Henry is better than O'Brien at 7. (O'Brien at 6 then of course)

 

[munstermuffin]

Ulstermen had an equally raw deal under Eddie O'Sullivan too. Some players forced their way in, but it always seemed that the close decisions Flannery/Best, Easterby/Best or Ferris, Horgan/Bowe or Trimble the close decisions always went in favour of Munster/Leinster under Eddie. Ireland only started picking Bowe after he went to the Ospreys, Brian Carney made the RWC squad ahead of him.

Similar under Kidney. I know some Ulster fans were confused as to even when their team became much better than Munster they still got a far less ratio of players. Again the likes of Tuohy, Henry, Cave and even Gilroy for a while (ignored for summer tour 2012) always seem to come second on decisions between them and Munster/Leinster players for a spot in the Ireland squad.

Earls would always get decision over Cave. O'Mahony over Henry or Henderson. Toner over Tuohy.

Agreed, but until the gamble is no longer too big and someone starts him ahead of Court in an important match, he hasn't properly overtaken him. Being the better impact sub =/= being the better player. Schmidt should be aiming at pushing one of McGrath/Kilcoyne being that better player asap.

While I understand what your saying my statement of overtaking is in the pecking order Kilcoyne is ahead of Court. But I agree it not in terms of been better player more terms of been used. But still think there nothing between players but they just offer totally different options.

 

[Peat]

While I understand what your saying my statement of overtaking is in the pecking order Kilcoyne is ahead of Court. But I agree it not in terms of been better player more terms of been used. But still think there nothing between players but they just offer totally different options.

I don't think you did understand what I said, as to rephrase my point, until Kilcoyne starts ahead of Court when Healy is absent - that is, starting on the pitch - in an important match I do not consider Kilcoyne to have overtaken Court in the pecking order. Starts is my measuring stick, not bench appearances.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I don't think people realize how much Court actually does in the scrum, all the plaudits go to Afoa - but he has really destroyed some scrums this season.

 

[profitius]

Ulstermen had an equally raw deal under Eddie O'Sullivan too. Some players forced their way in, but it always seemed that the close decisions Flannery/Best, Easterby/Best or Ferris, Horgan/Bowe or Trimble the close decisions always went in favour of Munster/Leinster under Eddie. Ireland only started picking Bowe after he went to the Ospreys, Brian Carney made the RWC squad ahead of him.

Similar under Kidney. I know some Ulster fans were confused as to even when their team became much better than Munster they still got a far less ratio of players. Again the likes of Tuohy, Henry, Cave and even Gilroy for a while (ignored for summer tour 2012) always seem to come second on decisions between them and Munster/Leinster players for a spot in the Ireland squad.

Earls would always get decision over Cave. O'Mahony over Henry or Henderson. Toner over Tuohy.

Cave should have been 13 ahead of Early when BOD was out, Gilroy should have been in earlier than Zebo because he was more impressive last season but Zebo went to NZ and Touhy should have been used more, he could have really improved with international experience and be a great asset to the team currently. These are the ones that spring to mind at the moment, I'm sure there are more examples.

I think peoples imaginations can sometimes run wild.

Paddy Jackson got picked ahead of Madigan and Keatley.
David Wallace was left out of the 2003 world cup squad.
Gary Longwell was played ahead of POC for a few seasons.
James Coughlan has ZERO caps.
Leinster will fans argue that McLoughlin, Cullen, Fitzgerald, Reddan, Boss and Jennings deserve more caps.
Connacht argue that their players are being overlooked too.


I'd have Cave ahead of Earls too but the irony is you both forgot to mention the Connacht player Eoin Griffin, who would be my personal choice between the 3.

 

[jcahill1]

I think peoples imaginations can sometimes run wild.

Paddy Jackson got picked ahead of Madigan and Keatley.
David Wallace was left out of the 2003 world cup squad.
Gary Longwell was played ahead of POC for a few seasons.
James Coughlan has ZERO caps.
Leinster will fans argue that McLoughlin, Cullen, Fitzgerald, Reddan, Boss and Jennings deserve more caps.
Connacht argue that their players are being overlooked too.


I'd have Cave ahead of Earls too but the irony is you both forgot to mention the Connacht player Eoin Griffin, who would be my personal choice between the 3.

That's very true, someone will always feel hard done by.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think peoples imaginations can sometimes run wild.

Paddy Jackson got picked ahead of Madigan and Keatley.
David Wallace was left out of the 2003 world cup squad.
Gary Longwell was played ahead of POC for a few seasons.
James Coughlan has ZERO caps.
Leinster will fans argue that McLoughlin, Cullen, Fitzgerald, Reddan, Boss and Jennings deserve more caps.
Connacht argue that their players are being overlooked too.


I'd have Cave ahead of Earls too but the irony is you both forgot to mention the Connacht player Eoin Griffin, who would be my personal choice between the 3.

Jackson was put in through media pressure and Decci wanted people off his back.
I never mentioned O'Sullivan so I'm going to stay away from him.
Coughlan only really impressed late in his career and was never a patch on Heaslip so there was never any point in capping him.
Cullen should have had more caps but he was behind POC and DOC even though DOC played some awful rugby at times but the rest of those players you mentioned got about as much as they deserved, apart from maybe Reddan who got Murray shoved in front of him even though he was never as good a player.

There was a bit of biased from Kidney and Ulster really got the worst of it, apart from Fergus Mcfadden that is.

 

[psychic duck]

I think peoples imaginations can sometimes run wild.

Paddy Jackson got picked ahead of Madigan and Keatley.
David Wallace was left out of the 2003 world cup squad.
Gary Longwell was played ahead of POC for a few seasons.
James Coughlan has ZERO caps.
Leinster will fans argue that McLoughlin, Cullen, Fitzgerald, Reddan, Boss and Jennings deserve more caps.
Connacht argue that their players are being overlooked too.


I'd have Cave ahead of Earls too but the irony is you both forgot to mention the Connacht player Eoin Griffin, who would be my personal choice between the 3.

I'll give you Paddy Jackson as an Ulster player getting a close call but ...

David Wallace missed out to Alan Quinlan/Eric Miller, Munster/Leinster players).
Gary Longwell never played ahead of POC (talking of imaginations running wild ).
James Coughlan only became a feature at Munster in his 30's.
Cullen probably deserved a few ahead of Mick O'Driscoll a Munsterman, same with Reddan and Murray/O'Leary.

The point is that I have always felt that Ulster players often seem to come off second best on the close calls to Munster/Leinster.

On an unrelated point, has an Ulsterman ever had a coaching role with the national set up?

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Jim Davidson in 1987, but since then no not that I'm aware of.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads another factor and big Elephant in room is central contracts. For example if it an Earls vs Cave call and it marginal either way you'll always pick the man who the IRFU are paying big bucks to over the guy Ulster rugby pay. That is also why Coughlan has never been selected despite being Munsters most consistent player past 3 seasons. You have Heaslip SOB and POM all able to play 8

 

[big ginger 8]

Lads another factor and big Elephant in room is central contracts. For example if it an Earls vs Cave call and it marginal either way you'll always pick the man who the IRFU are paying big bucks to over the guy Ulster rugby pay. That is also why Coughlan has never been selected despite being Munsters most consistent player past 3 seasons. You have Heaslip SOB and POM all able to play 8

SO'B doesn't have a central contract and PO'M had one game at 8 for Ireland as far as I can remember.

 

[Conal]

at the same time though im pretty sure the irfu will give them contracts over say henry and coughlan etc

 

[munstermuffin]

SO'B doesn't have a central contract and PO'M had one game at 8 for Ireland as far as I can remember.

IRFU pay large part of SOBs wage and hell be on central contract next renewal. And point is that while they haven't played there they can. Has nothing to do with if they've played there before

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Lads another factor and big Elephant in room is central contracts. For example if it an Earls vs Cave call and it marginal either way you'll always pick the man who the IRFU are paying big bucks to over the guy Ulster rugby pay.

Paddy Jackson wasn't a front line kicker for Ulster and had zero international caps. Ian Madigan wasn't Leinster's first choice flyhalf. Neither had an international contract. Ronan O'Gara was Munster's starting 10, was a front line kicker and had an international contract. Both Jackson and Madigan were picked ahead of him.

I don't think international contracts make as big a difference as has been claimed.

Ulster weren't under represented in the past. Their players didn't get picked because they weren't good enough. Rory Best wasn't as good as Jerry Flannery. Tommy Bowe didn't go to the 2007 World Cup but neither did Rob Kearney. Is that anti-Leinster bias or just a bad selection?

 

[munstermuffin]

Snoop would Jackson have been on bench if Sexton was fit ahead of ROG that day?
Not a hope media forced that then Kidney was forced to stick with it.
Tony Buckley was hardly best prop at Loosehead excluding Healy that time but had central contract.
Paddy Wallace was another that benefitted in tight calls on bench etc as did Leamy towards latter part of his time. It no secret IRFU want money their paying to be worthy

 

[Peat]

Except Mincer had a central contract for a much longer time than he was in the team, and Trimble's been on one for ages to no avail in terms of selection. In fact, I rather think he spent the Six Nations behind three guys not on central contracts.

Yes it makes a difference. But it's not the be all and the end all.

 

[munstermuffin]

Except Mincer had a central contract for a much longer time than he was in the team, and Trimble's been on one for ages to no avail in terms of selection. In fact, I rather think he spent the Six Nations behind three guys not on central contracts.

Yes it makes a difference. But it's not the be all and the end all.

Agreed its not the be all and end all but any 50/50,60/40 even 65/35 calls will be central contract calls.

 

[big ginger 8]

IRFU pay large part of SOBs wage and hell be on central contract next renewal. And point is that while they haven't played there they can. Has nothing to do with if they've played there before

Sorry but I don't have any reason to believe this SO'B turned down a central contract.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sorry but I don't have any reason to believe this SO'B turned down a central contract.

You can't turn down a central contract. IRFU designate your contract and decide does it come out of provincal budget or central. IF SOB is currently still on existing contract from Leinster then next renewal he will be paid out of IRFU budget what is wrong with that