How would Centralised Contracts work in the AP?

[TRF_Olyy]

I wouldn't want the RFU having control over players at Sale.
Sale outdates the RFU/international rugby by 10yrs.
Imagine how ****ed clubs would have been in the run up to the world cup. Tail end of the season, and Lancs suddenly demands that Cipriani plays fullback instead of flyhalf.
He wants Mike Brown and Joseph playing wing, at their clubs, to test them out. Corbisiero turning out at tighthead at Saints.
**** that noise.

 

[psychic duck]

I wouldn't want the RFU having control over players at Sale.
Sale outdates the RFU/international rugby by 10yrs.
Imagine how ****ed clubs would have been in the run up to the world cup. Tail end of the season, and Lancs suddenly demands that Cipriani plays fullback instead of flyhalf.
He wants Mike Brown and Joseph playing wing, at their clubs, to test them out. Corbisiero turning out at tighthead at Saints.
**** that noise.

Well said. Another thing that would come out of that is RFU had control they would also almost certainly 'encourage' players at clubs like Sale to play for teams higher up the league.

 

[valley commando]

Club v Country is a row that persists in team sport in the UK and certainly in rugby in France, I may be wrong but I've not heard any similar arguments in the SH, is this because of their policies re centralised contracts ?
It would appear that from comments made Eddie Jones is a believer in Central contracts and why not it works for England cricket and has been adopted in rugby in Wales Scotland and Ireland, it works in the major SH countries and they are more successful in rugby terms than England.
In my opinion the rugby clubs in England and in France have to much power and control as in Soccer's premier league this leads to a weaker National side complicated by to many non qualified nationals playing in the respective domestic leagues. Clubs in the top league should be restricted to a maximum of 6 non qualified for country players on any given match day and as in Wales the 2nd tier league restricted to 2 non qualified nationals on match day. This in turn will help bring youngsters through and ultimately improve the National side.
Currently as I have said the clubs in England and France hold to much power and need reining in otherwise the National teams will continue to suffer. I believe there is still an agreement in place in Wales were the WRU control the number of games a centrally contracted player can play in a season, this adds longevity to a players career.
Fans cannot have it both ways you either want a stronger national side which means central contracts or you continue to have more and more imports joining clubs on bigger and bigger contracts, which in turn leads to higher prices for fans with increased prices for tickets, parking at grounds, replica shirts and even beer and food at grounds.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Clubs in the top league should be restricted to a maximum of 6 non qualified for country players on any given match day and as in Wales the 2nd tier league restricted to 2 non qualified nationals on match day. This in turn will help bring youngsters through and ultimately improve the National side.

There already are limits on the amount of foreign players in each side, and with 12 clubs in the Prem we have plenty of English players in every position playing each week.
It's not like in Wales or Ireland, where two sides fielding a foreign tighthead or flyhalf is 50% of the countries top flight positions gone.
I can't really think of any players being blocked by foreigners at the moment.
You could argue Slade isn't playing 10 because of Steenson, but then Steenson is EQP and Slade is excelling in the centres.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Stephenson is prob one of the main youngster with decent AP experience being blocked a little bit ATM.

Could prob think a couple more but there isn't that many IMO.

 

[Peat]

I wouldn't want the RFU having control over players at Sale.
Sale outdates the RFU/international rugby by 10yrs.
Imagine how ****ed clubs would have been in the run up to the world cup. Tail end of the season, and Lancs suddenly demands that Cipriani plays fullback instead of flyhalf.
He wants Mike Brown and Joseph playing wing, at their clubs, to test them out. Corbisiero turning out at tighthead at Saints.
**** that noise.

I can't blame you - it irritates me a fair deal as an Ulster fan (although the Ireland team is generally fairly hands-off with its powers), but as an England fan with no club ties, I dream of this being the case and being able to say "Tough ***ty", as the ability to simply overnight enforce a positional change just gives Ireland a little head advantage over England. In fact, having thought about it, I think it's quite fair to say that centralised contracts won the last 6N for Ireland; if they hadn't been able to enforce Jared Payne playing at 13, they'd have probably shipped a few more points and lost out to England.

And forcing Ulster to play without Payne at 15 for most of the season while wasting a NIQ slot on Ludik arguably might have been the difference between Ulster winning the Pro 12 and not.

I guess whether you're ok with that depends where your priorities lie. I flat out believe the international game is more important than the club game, so I can live with it... although it does annoy me sometimes that I'm a big enough idiot to pick being on the lower side of the scale both ways. Oops.


edit: You've also probably grossly overstated the amount of interference that would have gone on.

 

[valley commando]

No matter what the clubs in England say there will be central contracts and from what experts are saying it will benefit the National side.
In answer to those who think there are enough sanctions in place re overseas players in the prem, I disagree, how do you know what talent is being missed through lack of exposure, in the Welsh 2nd tier (Welsh Prem) only 2 players not Wales qualified are allowed which leads to at least 156 players in 12 sides running out each Saturday that are Welsh qualified, the majority of which are youngsters on the up.

 

[Peat]

It would be amazing if talent wasn't being missed in the English game, but missing out on talent isn't our problem. We have enough guys with raw talent. Our issue is developing them.

There has to be a reasonable compromise between giving every English youngster a chance to show whether we can make it and having a high quality league for them to play in here and now, which means foreigners.

 

[Maverick1987]

Club v Country is a row that persists in team sport in the UK and certainly in rugby in France, I may be wrong but I've not heard any similar arguments in the SH, is this because of their policies re centralised contracts ?
It would appear that from comments made Eddie Jones is a believer in Central contracts and why not it works for England cricket and has been adopted in rugby in Wales Scotland and Ireland, it works in the major SH countries and they are more successful in rugby terms than England.
In my opinion the rugby clubs in England and in France have to much power and control as in Soccer's premier league this leads to a weaker National side complicated by to many non qualified nationals playing in the respective domestic leagues. Clubs in the top league should be restricted to a maximum of 6 non qualified for country players on any given match day and as in Wales the 2nd tier league restricted to 2 non qualified nationals on match day. This in turn will help bring youngsters through and ultimately improve the National side.
Currently as I have said the clubs in England and France hold to much power and need reining in otherwise the National teams will continue to suffer. I believe there is still an agreement in place in Wales were the WRU control the number of games a centrally contracted player can play in a season, this adds longevity to a players career.
Fans cannot have it both ways you either want a stronger national side which means central contracts or you continue to have more and more imports joining clubs on bigger and bigger contracts, which in turn leads to higher prices for fans with increased prices for tickets, parking at grounds, replica shirts and even beer and food at grounds.

As a person who has played lower level county cricket I completely disagree with you about central contracts working . Imo it's decimated cricket at domestic level to the point where hardly anyone goes who isn't a die hard cricket fan . It's very very similar to Welsh rugby to be honest . Where everyone support the country but no one support a club ....

 

[valley commando]

As a person who has played lower level county cricket I completely disagree with you about central contracts working . Imo it's decimated cricket at domestic level to the point where hardly anyone goes who isn't a die hard cricket fan . It's very very similar to Welsh rugby to be honest . Where everyone support the country but no one support a club ....

Pre region we used to average 5,500 to 6,000 in a 7,500 capacity ground now as a semi pro club we get an average home crowd of 2,500 for league games and apart from Ebbw Vale who have a loyal fan base most of the other clubs will struggle to get 1000 unless us or Ebbw are playing away, so the advent of regions hasn't been kind to club rugby in Wales so yes you are right, however the regions attendance figures are exceptionally low and in last Decembers survey by Wales on line several reasons were cited, they were in order -:
1. Lack of Affinity with the regions.
2. Poor product
3. Poor results.
4. Ticket Prices.
5. Weakened Teams.
6. Lack of Atmosphere.
7. Kick off Times.
8. Pro 12.
9. Live TV.
10. Competition with Soccer.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/big-welsh-rugby-regional-crowds-8278799

Most of the survey I agree with, but back to your support and comparison with cricket, is there to much international cricket being played ? It does seem to me that rather than central contracts the international cricket calendar is saturated with test match series followed by a one day series and then a 20/20 series after which players are on the plane to the next country of competition, surely that is the main reason England players are not released to their respective counties more often. Rugby players bodies would not be able to take the same volume of games as cricketers so therefore central contracts would not have the same effect in rugby. I may be wrong as I am not an avid follower of cricket but it would appear that was an increase in the number of International cricket matches in recent years possibly due to central contracts and the England and Wales cricket board using the team as a cash cow.
The attendance figures in Welsh rugby would improve if the structure changed, 2 regions, with a stronger 8 club 2nd tier, but due to politics in Welsh rugby it looks unlikely to happen in the near future if at all, which will lead to Wales as a 2nd tier international side in the not to distant future, a lot of it is down to the attitude of 2 of the regions who only care about themselves from the fans to the board and whilst they have friends in high office at the WRU common sense will not prevail.
Welsh rugby below the National side have lost between 10,000 and 20,000 followers as a result of the regions not being thought out properly and grass roots is where it has suffered most.







Most I agree with

 

[Maverick1987]

Pre region we used to average 5,500 to 6,000 in a 7,500 capacity ground now as a semi pro club we get an average home crowd of 2,500 for league games and apart from Ebbw Vale who have a loyal fan base most of the other clubs will struggle to get 1000 unless us or Ebbw are playing away, so the advent of regions hasn't been kind to club rugby in Wales so yes you are right, however the regions attendance figures are exceptionally low and in last Decembers survey by Wales on line several reasons were cited, they were in order -:
1. Lack of Affinity with the regions.
2. Poor product
3. Poor results.
4. Ticket Prices.
5. Weakened Teams.
6. Lack of Atmosphere.
7. Kick off Times.
8. Pro 12.
9. Live TV.
10. Competition with Soccer.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/big-welsh-rugby-regional-crowds-8278799

Most of the survey I agree with, but back to your support and comparison with cricket, is there to much international cricket being played ? It does seem to me that rather than central contracts the international cricket calendar is saturated with test match series followed by a one day series and then a 20/20 series after which players are on the plane to the next country of competition, surely that is the main reason England players are not released to their respective counties more often. Rugby players bodies would not be able to take the same volume of games as cricketers so therefore central contracts would not have the same effect in rugby. I may be wrong as I am not an avid follower of cricket but it would appear that was an increase in the number of International cricket matches in recent years possibly due to central contracts and the England and Wales cricket board using the team as a cash cow.
The attendance figures in Welsh rugby would improve if the structure changed, 2 regions, with a stronger 8 club 2nd tier, but due to politics in Welsh rugby it looks unlikely to happen in the near future if at all, which will lead to Wales as a 2nd tier international side in the not to distant future, a lot of it is down to the attitude of 2 of the regions who only care about themselves from the fans to the board and whilst they have friends in high office at the WRU common sense will not prevail.
Welsh rugby below the National side have lost between 10,000 and 20,000 followers as a result of the regions not being thought out properly and grass roots is where it has suffered most.







Most I agree with

You would definitely be right about more people watching England cricket since 2005 . The trouble is there's too many internationals so the big name players aren't playing domestic games . That's the part I liken to regional rugby where the big players don't play as often as they could . A large portion of the Rabo 12 is 2nd teams playing that's why the standard spikes massively in the play offs compared to the fairly steady standard of the regular season

 

[smartcooky]

A few questions on this:

Since we are making up the rules....

1. A player is dropped from the EPS/ESS. Clubs suddenly become in breach of the salary cap? If as an example, Manu Tuilagi's market value is around 500K - but is dropped by the EPS - clubs would have to start offloading players.

There is no reason why clubs could not be granted an exemption to the salary cap (perhaps to run to the end of the following season) should that situation arise.

2. If I'm a club like Worcester (as an example) - and I develop a world class player. I sign him to the salary that I think reflects his importance to the team. Now if he is fully contracted to the RFU upon national selection (and they pay his full salary no matter where he plays) how does Worcester compete to retain him?

The player has a contract with the club, and the terms of that contract must remain valid to at least the end of the contract, at which point they are in the same position as any other team as regards retaining him.

3. Who negotiates on players salaries? If it's the clubs - surely they could go as high as they want and know the RFU would foot the bill, if it's RFU the clubs would have to foot the bill should players not make the team.

Once a player is selected to EPS/ESS, all three parties become partners in any contract negotiations that arise. If the club tries to get an OTT salary level for the player, the RFU can simply say they are not prepared to pay him that much. Good faith bargaining applies.

 

[valley commando]

You would definitely be right about more people watching England cricket since 2005 . The trouble is there's too many internationals so the big name players aren't playing domestic games . That's the part I liken to regional rugby where the big players don't play as often as they could . A large portion of the Rabo 12 is 2nd teams playing that's why the standard spikes massively in the play offs compared to the fairly steady standard of the regular season

You are right often the Rabo will have matches consisting of 2nd teams so why have the arse's at the WRUin taken the BIC off the clubs in order to play the regions 2nd teams, taking away the only competition where we could have decent away trips and test our boys against the likes of Connaught, Worcester, Bristol the Pirates etc, those games were the high point in our season, the clubs have been punished by the knobs at the top such as Perfect hair Davies , who are in league with the pieman of Cardiff a clear case of putting the upstarts in their place, its funny how the only people whose views differ from mine are Cardiff fans who have always had it their own way, Lyn Jones one of the most knowledgeable authorities in Welsh rugby, coaching amongst others the Ospreys and the Dragons and having played for Llanelli Cardiff once refered to Cardiff as 'Chequebook Charlies'. He added: "They are a rubbish club, who do nothing for the game in Wales." There aren't many outside of Cardiff that would disagree.

 

[j'nuh]

I wouldn't want the RFU having control over players at Sale.
Sale outdates the RFU/international rugby by 10yrs.
Imagine how ****ed clubs would have been in the run up to the world cup. Tail end of the season, and Lancs suddenly demands that Cipriani plays fullback instead of flyhalf.
He wants Mike Brown and Joseph playing wing, at their clubs, to test them out. Corbisiero turning out at tighthead at Saints.
**** that noise.

lol like the RFU would pick anyone from Sale anyway.

 

[TimothyQ]

Has anyone considered that we could be centrally contracting developing players rather than the top players? If rather than 30 guys earning top money, the RFU had a stable of 60 18-24 year olds earning much less they would be able to control development of young talent and make developing youngsters far less expensive for top clubs. It would also incentivise clubs to use young players in their 1st XV as they would take pressure off the wage bill.