Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Peat]

What changed is that their powerplay over the Heineken Cup has backfired on them and they have ended up painting themselves into a corner. The Welsh are their only way out, without them, they are all alone with no place to go.

PRL is anybody's ***** at the moment.

Not necessarily true. The BT deal, as reported, covers the old Sky deal and the HEC deal. Losing six match days worth of revenue is irritating and worth reversing, but probably not the end of their world. The French remain committed to a tournament with them at some point, officially at least. PRL would look pretty silly without European rugby, but it would still be there, and long term are probably not the biggest losers out of a continuing impasse.

As for backfiring - they've got everything they wanted bar the TV deal and governance with negotiations yet to close. They've probably killed ERC. Backfire? Its not over yet, but so far I'd say they're not doing too bad.

 

[smartcooky]

Not necessarily true. The BT deal, as reported, covers the old Sky deal and the HEC deal. Losing six match days worth of revenue is irritating and worth reversing, but probably not the end of their world. The French remain committed to a tournament with them at some point, officially at least. PRL would look pretty silly without European rugby, but it would still be there, and long term are probably not the biggest losers out of a continuing impasse.

Thats Six to nine match days for every team involved in both the Amlin and the Heineken Cup

That is not all they have lost. The lost sponsor exposure and the prestige counts for a lot, even of its not directly measurable in ££££ .

If I were the owner of a business selling a pan-European product, and had sponsored AP teams, I would be mightily p¡ssed off if my product wasn't going to be on show in France, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Italy next year. In fact, I would be reviewing my sponsorship agreement!

As for backfiring - they've got everything they wanted bar the TV deal and governance with negotiations yet to close. They've probably killed ERC. Backfire? Its not over yet, but so far I'd say they're not doing too bad.

Not a valid argument.

Everyone knows that the only thing they really wanted was the governance. If they had got that, everything else would have followed on from it anyway

The fact is, they made a power play, it failed because their French allies did a repeat of 1940, and now they're looking for the Welsh to bail them out. Do you really believe they would be going cap in hand to the Welsh if the Anglo-French tournament had worked out for them?

 

[Tony Manx]

Possibly the 'worst spelling of team names' of all time

Now corrected and thanks for pointing that out but I would appreciate it if you could also answer the point I was trying to make......what can they offer an enlarged English league other than forcing it to play too many matches per season and lower the overall average of gates before they subside (as mentioned in the DM today as being a worry) into oblivion as relegation would mean they have nowhere to play?

 

[Peat]

I nearly finished quite a long post then it dawned on me there's no point. Somewhere along the line intelligent arguments about the advantages of the Unions keeping control and the difficulties and dangers of the proposed new model became simply seizing on every fact that showed PRL in a bad light regardless of logic. Logic that shows the weakness of these positions is ignored. So I'm out.

edit: Ever closer to a compromise it seems http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...tinent-launch-new-European-Champions-Cup.html

 

[Amiga500]

Anyone else see this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25488922


I think Gwyn Jones is probably right; even if there is an agreement between the WRU and regions in the near future, you'd have to expect it to be a short-term stopgap and that the WRU have had enough of the regions and will use this time to set up alternatives (or purchase the regions).

 

[Amiga500]

edit: Ever closer to a compromise it seems http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...tinent-launch-new-European-Champions-Cup.html

Not so sure to be honest, on one hand the report is talking about a solution for Europe within touching distance and on the other it is talking about an Anglo-Welsh league which would use the European weekends for "domestic" fixtures in the 16-team league.

 

[Peat]

Not so sure to be honest, on one hand the report is talking about a solution for Europe within touching distance and on the other it is talking about an Anglo-Welsh league which would use the European weekends for "domestic" fixtures in the 16-team league.

The article calls it "very much a second option" - my opinion is that its there as backup and nothing more.

 

[Amiga500]

The article calls it "very much a second option" - my opinion is that its there as backup and nothing more.

I suppose it does make more sense in that context.

Then onto the next question; would RFU and WRU sanction it?


and getting back to Europe - I think I probably agree with the French on this philosophically. The 6N is a bit too much of a closed shop, whereas FIRA would offer more potential for Romanian or Georgian teams (for example) to get involved.

 

[Peat]

I suppose it does make more sense in that context.

Then onto the next question; would RFU and WRU sanction it?


and getting back to Europe - I think I probably agree with the French on this philosophically. The 6N is a bit too much of a closed shop, whereas FIRA would offer more potential for Romanian or Georgian teams (for example) to get involved.

RFU probably, WRU probably never. That one would end in the courtrooms, and I think it is testament to how desperate the Welsh regions are that they're contemplating this.

I am very skeptical of the extent to which the FFR actually holds the good of Europe's minor rugby powers at heart and to which they're looking for a voting bloc to ensure getting their own way on European rugby in future.

 

[dragos03]

From the perspective of a minor rugby nation in Europe, I fully back the French.

France has always been the only Tier 1 nation that has supported the expansion of European rugby beyond the closed shop of the 6N. For a long time now, the French clubs and academies have welcomed players from Tier 2 (and Tier 3) countries and the rise of rugby in places like Georgia would have been impossible without it. They were the only ones to take part in the old FIRA Trophy (until 1997), playing every year against Romania, Italy, etc. They have also created and funded FIRA, the tiny organisation that rules European rugby outside the 6N. And it's thanks to FIRA that we have the European Nations Cup where even the most obscure rugby nations like Azerbaijan can compete, also the junior and 7s European tournaments.

So, the French want to get their way on the future of European rugby? They have our votes. They have shown for many years now that they are the only ones that deserve them, their support for the growth of the sport on the continent has been proved with facts, not hollow promises.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

From the perspective of a minor rugby nation in Europe, I fully back the French.

France has always been the only Tier 1 nation that has supported the expansion of European rugby beyond the closed shop of the 6N. For a long time now, the French clubs and academies have welcomed players from Tier 2 (and Tier 3) countries and the rise of rugby in places like Georgia would have been impossible without it. They were the only ones to take part in the old FIRA Trophy (until 1997), playing every year against Romania, Italy, etc. They have also created and funded FIRA, the tiny organisation that rules European rugby outside the 6N. And it's thanks to FIRA that we have the European Nations Cup where even the most obscure rugby nations like Azerbaijan can compete, also the junior and 7s European tournaments.

So, the French want to get their way on the future of European rugby? They have our votes. They have shown for many years now that they are the only ones that deserve them, their support for the growth of the sport on the continent has been proved with facts, not hollow promises.

Good post. The English speaking nations have historically been self serving and interested only in lining their own pockets. It's a terribly short termist view.

I want to see a European competition in 20 years time with clubs from Georgia, Romania, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Russia taking part. That becomes more possible under a FIRA-AER run tournament. A 6 Nations lead competition will still see the same cosy arrangement we have today I fear.

Something to consider is Ireland's bid for the 2023 World Cup. The IRFU will whore themselves to whoever promises the most votes. Unfortunately the bloc of English, Welsh, Scottish and Italian votes outweighs that of France and the other European nations. As such I can't see the IRFU breaking from wanting a 6 Nations lead European competition unless others break rank first. Scotland would also be notoriously conservative so if someone breaks rank, it'll likely be the WRU or RFU.

 

[Amiga500]

Something to consider is Ireland's bid for the 2023 World Cup. The IRFU will whore themselves to whoever promises the most votes.

Which is something that I would completely condemn.


I have supported the existing HEC in the HEC vs ECC argument as it was the best proposed solution for the game as a whole.

If a potential solution were to have FIRA in control, I would support it over ERC.

 

[Tony Manx]

Which is something that I would completely condemn.

Yet, I believe, they did when NZ asked them for their support for the last RWC bid with offers of games with the AB's when it should have gone to Japan by rights...........

 

[McTallshort]

Good post. The English speaking nations have historically been self serving and interested only in lining their own pockets. It's a terribly short termist view.

I want to see a European competition in 20 years time with clubs from Georgia, Romania, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Russia taking part. That becomes more possible under a FIRA-AER run tournament. A 6 Nations lead competition will still see the same cosy arrangement we have today I fear.

Something to consider is Ireland's bid for the 2023 World Cup. The IRFU will whore themselves to whoever promises the most votes. Unfortunately the bloc of English, Welsh, Scottish and Italian votes outweighs that of France and the other European nations. As such I can't see the IRFU breaking from wanting a 6 Nations lead European competition unless others break rank first. Scotland would also be notoriously conservative so if someone breaks rank, it'll likely be the WRU or RFU.

Hold on Snoop, France beat England to the 2007 WC because they whored themselves to the Welsh and scottish for votes. Both Scotland and Wales were able to play their pool games at home in return for backing a French bid, this back fired on the French who ended up playing their QF in Cardiff.

 

[smartcooky]

From the perspective of a minor rugby nation in Europe, I fully back the French.

France has always been the only Tier 1 nation that has supported the expansion of European rugby beyond the closed shop of the 6N. For a long time now, the French clubs and academies have welcomed players from Tier 2 (and Tier 3) countries and the rise of rugby in places like Georgia would have been impossible without it. They were the only ones to take part in the old FIRA Trophy (until 1997), playing every year against Romania, Italy, etc. They have also created and funded FIRA, the tiny organisation that rules European rugby outside the 6N. And it's thanks to FIRA that we have the European Nations Cup where even the most obscure rugby nations like Azerbaijan can compete, also the junior and 7s European tournaments.

So, the French want to get their way on the future of European rugby? They have our votes. They have shown for many years now that they are the only ones that deserve them, their support for the growth of the sport on the continent has been proved with facts, not hollow promises.

I have an acquaintance who was at one time, heavily involved in the iRB's SOS Kit Aid (and thereby, to a certain extent, Romanian rugby). He is still involved in the annual Rosslyn National Schools Sevens; some of you will know who I mean!

His opinion of FIRA-AER does not bear repeating on here (I would struggle to subvert the auto-censor) so suffice it to say, he has little if any faith in FIRA-AER to organise anything. An expression about p¡ss-ups and breweries is frequently used.

 

[dragos03]

His opinion of FIRA-AER does not bear repeating on here (I would struggle to subvert the auto-censor) so suffice it to say, he has little if any faith in FIRA-AER to organise anything. An expression about p¡ss-ups and breweries is frequently used.

FIRA-AER is currently a very small organisation with only 2 full-time employees I believe and basically no funds. As a result, their competitions are notoriously amateurish and badly organised. Even at the top level of the ENC there have been ridiculous incidents, for example last season the referees of the Georgia vs Portugal match missed a plane and did not make it to the game (it went on with local Georgian refs) and before the Belgium vs Romania match the hosts did not allow the Romanian team to practice on the stadium in order to get an unfair advantage, etc.

But what else can you expect from a 2-man body? It's a miracle that they keep these competitions going in any form, they have been doing an amazing job given their size! The French proposal is to give more power and money to FIRA-AER and to build it into a professional organisation that could continue to develop the sport around Europe.

 

[Amiga500]

Yet, I believe, they did when NZ asked them for their support for the last RWC bid with offers of games with the AB's when it should have gone to Japan by rights...........

I would be of the opinion two wrongs do not make a right...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Hold on Snoop, France beat England to the 2007 WC because they whored themselves to the Welsh and scottish for votes. Both Scotland and Wales were able to play their pool games at home in return for backing a French bid, this back fired on the French who ended up playing their QF in Cardiff.

Absolutely true. Also in 1999, Wales whored themselves to the other four countries in the (then) 5 Nations. France also whored themselves to Ireland and Scotland in 2007 (the IRFU couldn't stage games because Lansdowne Road was being redeveloped), England have sold themselves out to the Welsh for votes to stage the 2015 World Cup.

In this part of the world a sickening amount of horse trading goes on for votes. With (as far as I know) seven votes between Scotland, Wales, Italy and England versus three votes between France and the rest of Europe, the IRFU will side with the group who can get them the biggest advantage ahead of the 2023 vote. I don't agree with it but it happens.

 

[j_remos]

Absolutely true. Also in 1999, Wales whored themselves to the other four countries in the (then) 5 Nations. France also whored themselves to Ireland and Scotland in 2007 (the IRFU couldn't stage games because Lansdowne Road was being redeveloped), England have sold themselves out to the Welsh for votes to stage the 2015 World Cup.

In this part of the world a sickening amount of horse trading goes on for votes. With (as far as I know) seven votes between Scotland, Wales, Italy and England versus three votes between France and the rest of Europe, the IRFU will side with the group who can get them the biggest advantage ahead of the 2023 vote. I don't agree with it but it happens.

So the only sensible answer then is for a new body to be formed. If we want to set up a group of European Tournaments that cover the Whole of Europe then all stakeholders need to be involved. In the short term (while the developing nations get up to speed) They can be represented by FIRA (If they want).

How Votes are devided up will be difficult, we still need Union involvement because they should control Governance and Discipline (In My opinion) but there needs to be a bigger role for the League organizers too (There clubs make up the majority and any attempt to sideline them will stop any compromise).

I think the original RCC idea of 3 tiers had a lot of merit. But if we want the smaller Rugby nations on board (assuming we are serious about this being a European competition) they need to have a voice, not just be dictated to.


The other option is we could all keep arguing about who is the most Greedy... Rather than getting a pie big enough for all.

 

[Peat]

So the only sensible answer then is for a new body to be formed. If we want to set up a group of European Tournaments that cover the Whole of Europe then all stakeholders need to be involved. In the short term (while the developing nations get up to speed) They can be represented by FIRA (If they want).

The turkey doesn't vote for Christmas and I can't see the home unions agreeing to such a redistribution of power anytime soon.

I would be surprised if Camou gets them to agre to FIRA even with European club rugby on the line. It's quite possible Camou isn't actually serious about this - asking for something you won't be given is a great way to get something else as a "second choice".

For what it's worth, growing European rugby sounds pretty cool. Camou's negotiation tactics, less so.