Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Packman]

I see that the French have released another statement today saying that they are definately pulling out. Both sides will be wanting the Welsh to comit to their competition.

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,16024_8917259,00.html

I still think the players themselves who were vocally supportive of the Eurocup last season need to man up and say something. If they don't and just follow the money then I'm really going to struggle to find much respect for them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Munster may have a stadium capable of holding more than Welford road, but they had a crowd of 6k watching them last week.
On the other hand Saracens had 62k at Twickenham.

 

[nickdnz]

Hmm, lets see.

Populations:
England: 53 million

France: 65.7 million

Ireland: 6.3 million
Wales: 3.0 million
Scotland: 5.3 million
Total: 14.6 million

Italy*: 60.9 million

*With Italy obviously having very very low market penetration.

[and the Welsh being a pack of tight-fisted yappy bstarts that don't bother supporting their teams in big numbers :lol:]

Which they can do right now... but it would seem they are not happy with that.

Llanelli Population - 40,000
Swansea Population - 239,000
Newport Population - 145,700
Cardiff Population - 324,800
Dublin Population - 525,383
Belfast Population - 418,418
Cork Population: 119,230
Galway Population: 75,529
Edinburgh Population: 495,360
Glasgow Population: 598,000
Parma Population: 184,214
Treviso Population: 82,535

Total: 3,241,669
Avg: 270,122

Bath Population: 83,992
Exeter Population: 117,773
Gloucester Population: 121,900
Greater London Population: 8,173, 194
Newcastle Population: 279,100
Salford Population: 234,500
Worcester Population: 98,700
Northampton Population: 212,500
Leicester Population: 329,600

Total: 9,645,859
Avg: 803,821

However - if you remove London out of it, which supports four clubs with a total stadium capacity of around 60,000 between them - the average population of the remainding teams becomes 184,758. So in theory the attendance of those teams supporters should be 32% less than the average of the Rabo12, which to be fair still isn't the case.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Munster may have a stadium capable of holding more than Welford road, but they had a crowd of 6k watching them last week.
On the other hand Saracens had 62k at Twickenham.

Well they weren't playing in Thomond now, were they? We've sold out the Aviva plenty of times.

 

[ratsapprentice]

No sir. Not competitive. Not worth winning.

Barring injuries, the teams that played in the first round of the premiership were almost entirely first choice, can you honestly say the same for every pro12 team?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well they weren't playing in Thomond now, were they? We've sold out the Aviva plenty of times.

For rabo direct league games?
And if munster expect 25k every game at thommand, as has been suggested, why lose 19k playing elsewhere?
Welford Road may be slightly smaller but it's sold out a lot more, which is the more telling figure (especially as they've been wanting to expand for a while).

 

[psychic duck]

For rabo direct league games?
And if munster expect 25k every game at thommand, as has been suggested, why lose 19k playing elsewhere?
Welford Road may be slightly smaller but it's sold out a lot more, which is the more telling figure (especially as they've been wanting to expand for a while).

These were the average league attendances by team last season. It doesn't take a genius to work out that 8 of the bottom 12 attended sides are Pro12 sides, and half the league is worse attended than the bottom French or English side. In fact the Italian and Scottish attendances were pretty bad in the context of ProD2 and were less attended than Bristol or Newcastle in the Championship. So I can see why the English and French are unhappy with those two pocketing 26% of the ERC profits based on how much they contribute to the tournament in terms of revenue or in terms of the product itself.

2012/2013 Average League Attendances by Team:
1 - 21,244 - Leicester
2 - 21,046 - Harlequins
3 - 19,519 - Toulouse
4 - 18,002 - Saracens
5 - 17,711 - Bordeaux-Begles
6 - 17,250 - Clermont
7 - 16,727 - Stade Francais
8 - 16,525 - Leinster
9 - 15,539 - Toulon
10 - 14,699 - Munster
11 - 14,506 - Bayonne
12 - 14,004 - Gloucester
13 - 13,145 - Racing-Metro
14 - 12,812 - Northampton
15 - 12,417 - Grenoble
16 - 12,357 - Wasps
17 - 12,152 - Montpellier
18 - 11,872 - Perpignan
19 - 11,516 - Bath
20 - 10,544 - Ulster
21 - 10,327 - Biarritz
22 - 9,856 - Ospreys
23 - 9,471 - London Irish
24 - 9,306 - Worcester
25 - 8,669 - Agen
26 - 8,367 - Exeter
27 - 8,055 - Cardiff Blues
28 - 7,934 - Castres
29 - 7,746 - Scarlets
30 - 7,266 - Sale
31 - 6,494 - Mont-de-Marsan
32 - 5,302 - London Welsh
33 - 5,223 - Dragons
34 - 5,149 - Connacht
35 - 4,180 - Glasgow
36 - 3,808 - Treviso
37 - 3,779 - Edinburgh
38 - 2,405 - Zebre

 

[Peat]

Oh good grief

Re Rotation - A lot of Rabo rotation is directly enforced by the Unions. The clubs do not have a choice. Having a shot at the clubs for not taking it seriously in those regards is ridiculous and occupies the same logical ground as slagging off Richard Cockerill for resting Dan Cole et al when he has to due to the EPS agreement. Just the Pro12 clubs, particularly the Irish, have to do more of it. Most of the rest of the rotation is injury enforced, just like it happens everywhere else.

A lot of the rest of the rotation comes from clubs who can do it and still finish near the top. Leinster in particular will freely rotate between international scrum-half Eoin Reddan and international scrum-half Isaac Boss, to pick one example, because there is no appreciable fall in standard and it keeps them both fresh. No different to Leicester rotating between Castro and Dan Cole, or Sarries rotating between Wigglesworth and de Kock. Just some Pro12 clubs, in particular the Irish, can do more of it. A lot more. So can the Top 14, although I'm not sure just how much Toulouse, Toulon et al rotate. But they have the depth to. We English by and large don't, and that's because we can't, because of the salary cap. The salary cap prevents our top clubs from spending to their potential and amassing squads that can cope with the mundane and wheel out the big guns, fresh and rested, for when it matters. That's the difference. I feel pretty sure our top clubs would do it if they could, but the Turkey doesn't vote for Christmas and the majority of the PRL won't vote to raise it that high.

Then there's a bit of "Eh, screw the Pro 12, I've got a HEC group game" rotation in places where clubs have a choice and where it will hurt their league chances. Does probably happen. I'll admit I don't look at the right team sheets often enough. But the three main factors leading to Pro 12 rotation are a) The Unions b) Injury c) A handful of sides having a very strong squad. D - They don't care - doesn't really come into it. And, at the top end, isn't true. Winning the Pro 12 matters. Giving the clubs near the bottom something to play for is probably a good idea though; if you're not going to make the play-offs, there's nothing but pride and the fans.

Re: Attendances - The first round attendances were lousy because Ulster, Leinster, Ospreys, Cardiff and Munster all weren't playing at home. No, Cork isn't Munster's home, it's somewhere they go to appease Cork people. Thomond is Munster's home. Point of order - you'd probably expect 15k there for a Pro 12 game, which isn't bad for a city of just over 91,000. If Limerick was the size of Leicester, they'd need a 40k seater minimum. Those are the five teams that drag in big crowds comparable to crowds anywhere this side of the equator.

So what about the other 7?

Newport's attendances are poor due to no particular love for regionalism and a particularly crap team.
Scarlets' attendances are poor due to a town of 40,000 I suspect, plus the lingering aftermath of the regions thing.

Connacht fill out the Sportsground regularly thanks to a real growth of interest in rugby there, and might even be wise to consider moving if current trends continue, but right now rugby is very much a minority sport there.

Treviso and Zebre, again rugby is still something of a minority sport. Treviso is a town of 82,000 with a lot of successful sports teams; the Stade di Monigo is 6,700. Zebre play in a stadium of 3,500, probably due to a lack of funding and good players.

The real oddities are Glasgow and Edinburgh. Huge cities. Edinburgh rattle around inside Murrayfield, which is no good for anyone, and if the SRU weren't heavily in debt they'd be allowed to find more suitable lodgings. Glasgow have Scotstoun, and it'll be interesting to see how well it fills out now Glasgow are consistently doing well. But, hey, rugby is a tough sell in Scotland at the moment, and the real heartland is the borders - who just don't have the concentrated population centre needed. The natural club for the borders to collaborate with is Newcastle.

So there we have it. Large amounts of the Pro 12 are development projects really, growing rugby interest. There's a few places that really, really should be more than they are - Edinburgh and Newport spring to mind - but by and large, in the big urban centres with a real interest in rugby union, people want to watch Pro 12, and in the non-heartlands, attendances are going up.

---

The Pro 12 is not a perfect league. It has more weak members than is ideal and competition could be intensified. Some of the rugby is pretty bad. Then again, so is quite a bit of AP rugby - no faulting the intensity on the latter's part, but imagination and creativity are also needed to make good rugby. I have seen a lot of excellent Pro 12 rugby - some of it looks a bit exhibition match in terms of the mismatch (but then, Leicester vs Wuss/Sarries vs. LI...) and some of it is just two great teams going for it hammer and tongs.

The argument over qualification should be over - it's over at the ERC, it should be over between fans - competitive qualification will come in, and everyone can see likely benefits. Hopefully it will see an increase in standards, although really, what the Pro 12 needs is more money. Arguably the Unions need to be more hands off - although, at the same time, I'd be intrigued as to the thoughts on player welfare and how best to keep improving the England side from those who argue most strongly for unleashing the internationals in the Pro 12. Personally, it seems pretty obvious to me that we overplay our players, and sanity would dictate a tighter cap on how many games people should play.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Does anyone have details of Union enforced rest in the pro12? Would be interested in seeing them.

 

[Amiga500]

Munster may have a stadium capable of holding more than Welford road, but they had a crowd of 6k watching them last week.

They weren't in that stadium last week

On the other hand Saracens had 62k at Twickenham.

The double header... between 4 London clubs? :huh:

Yes... that compares to a run of the mill Rabo game between two teams from different countries.


I blame the teachers.

 

[psychic duck]

Re: Attendances - The first round attendances were lousy because Ulster, Leinster, Ospreys, Cardiff and Munster all weren't playing at home. No, Cork isn't Munster's home, it's somewhere they go to appease Cork people. Thomond is Munster's home. Point of order - you'd probably expect 15k there for a Pro 12 game, which isn't bad for a city of just over 91,000. If Limerick was the size of Leicester, they'd need a 40k seater minimum. Those are the five teams that drag in big crowds comparable to crowds anywhere this side of the equator.

Munster is Cork+Limerick though, not just one city. So considering that, the combined population isn't all that far off as you are making out. Similarly the Welsh sides encompass further than the where they're based, Ospreys are Bridgend and Neath as well for instance. Ulster would draw in a few more fans than just those in Belfast. Compare Scarlets that have all of Carmarthenshire and North Wales to themselves, to Bayonne who are a similar size to Llanelli and have to battle with a more successful neighbour right next door as competition for fans.

It's also worth noting that before Ireland's fortunes upturned around 2000, the crowds were pretty poor, there are a fair few glory hunters in there and if they dropped down to the Welsh level of success I suspect the crowds would reflect this.

It's no surprise the Pro12 crowds are the worst. Half the league is pretty unattractive opposition, the attractive opposition is often weakened and nearly all the matches are on TV anyway, and with the distances there is virtually non existent travelling support.

None of Ulster, Cardiff Blues or Ospreys are in the top 15 league crowds from the NH either. Even if all 5 of those sides were hosting in the same round the league would come off easily third best as they would be facing some dour Edinburgh, Zebre or Connacht like opposition. I

t's palpable that the Pro12 is the comfortably the worst attended of the 3 leagues, and it's no surprise either with more dead games, poor teams and less than full strength teams and less emphasis on the league. Hopefully a good thing that can come out of this Heineken Cup mess is the Pro12 product can be improved.

 

[Peat]

According to google, Cork is an hour and a half away from Limerick. That's not exactly casual fan territory. If we want to give hour catchment zones, and start including places outside the city limits who may well go support a team, the numbers given change radically - and still don't include Cork for Munster rugby.

 

[Feicarsinn]

In fairness to Ulster, their low attendances can be attributed to the small size of Ravenhill, which they're renovating as we speak. I'd expect them to be getting in our around 14,000-15,000 when it's a done and dusted.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Munster is Cork+Limerick though, not just one city. So considering that, the combined population isn't all that far off as you are making out. Similarly the Welsh sides encompass further than the where they're based, Ospreys are Bridgend and Neath as well for instance. Ulster would draw in a few more fans than just those in Belfast. Compare Scarlets that have all of Carmarthenshire and North Wales to themselves, to Bayonne who are a similar size to Llanelli and have to battle with a more successful neighbour right next door as competition for fans.

For the Ospreys not many outside of Swansea that are Neath or Bridgend fans are huge supporters that will go to their games, they'd rather stay local and go to the prem / championship games which are A. Cheaper and B. is their "local" club where there is a huge tie in for most fans and C. Travel distance, Bridgend to Swansea takes ~30-40 mins in good traffic compared to pop to the brewery field and watch a game for the fraction of the price even less when petrol is taken into consideration.

The same applies to the Blues outside of Cardiff not many people head in to see games mostly down to the past. Also sorry but I have to laugh at Scarlets having North Wales.. Fans in NW watch games on the TV, for live games if they are close pop to go see RGC in Colwyn bay not drive 4 hours to Llanelli to go watch a game So you can't compare that to any other situation for a team. Then as with the other areas points A and B come into play again.

Bayonne may have a larger team down the road however if Bayonne is the local team people will go see them. The regions aren't the solitary teams around, For the Scarlets region there is hundreds of teams playing every weekend you can pop along to the local club and watch a game with a few reasonably priced drinks at a variety of levels sure you're not seeing internationals play but you are supporting your community and local team.

 

[Largejanner]

The market will decide!

 

[Amiga500]

The market will decide!

You are one of the people who should be very wary of the motives of those representing the PRL here. Increasing the disparity in monies between clubs within the domestic league by biasing towards European qualification will do nothing good for overall league competitiveness.

What you think will happen the better members of Exeter's squad if they fail to qualify for Europe a couple of seasons in a row? They'll have comparatively large wads of cash waved in front of their noses by Leicester/Saracens etc and off they will go.

Tread carefully... very, very carefully.

To compare to the top league of English soccer.

In the years 1972-1992 there were 8 different winners.
In the years 1993-2013 there were 5 different winners. 3 of those different winners are the result of unsustainable business practices by individual investors.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Munster is Cork+Limerick though, not just one city. So considering that, the combined population isn't all that far off as you are making out. Similarly the Welsh sides encompass further than the where they're based, Ospreys are Bridgend and Neath as well for instance. Ulster would draw in a few more fans than just those in Belfast. Compare Scarlets that have all of Carmarthenshire and North Wales to themselves, to Bayonne who are a similar size to Llanelli and have to battle with a more successful neighbour right next door as competition for fans.

Cork isn't Munster rugby though, Cork is almost pure hurling and gaelic football county with a few rugby schools in the city. You'd also want to be the worlds best fan to go from Limerick to Musgrave park to see a domestic league match against Edinburgh, it'd be like going from London to Northampton to see them play Newcastle with the Saints playing at sixfields instead of Franklins Gardens.

 

[psychic duck]

For the Ospreys not many outside of Swansea that are Neath or Bridgend fans are huge supporters that will go to their games, they'd rather stay local and go to the prem / championship games which are A. Cheaper and B. is their "local" club where there is a huge tie in for most fans and C. Travel distance, Bridgend to Swansea takes ~30-40 mins in good traffic compared to pop to the brewery field and watch a game for the fraction of the price even less when petrol is taken into consideration.

The same applies to the Blues outside of Cardiff not many people head in to see games mostly down to the past. Also sorry but I have to laugh at Scarlets having North Wales.. Fans in NW watch games on the TV, for live games if they are close pop to go see RGC in Colwyn bay not drive 4 hours to Llanelli to go watch a game So you can't compare that to any other situation for a team. Then as with the other areas points A and B come into play again.

Bayonne may have a larger team down the road however if Bayonne is the local team people will go see them. The regions aren't the solitary teams around, For the Scarlets region there is hundreds of teams playing every weekend you can pop along to the local club and watch a game with a few reasonably priced drinks at a variety of levels sure you're not seeing internationals play but you are supporting your community and local team.

The point I was trying to make is that somebody quite a way out of Llanelli could support the Scarlets as their pro team with the wider spread of teams. Whilst in France for instance, with a densely populated club scene in the south west there is more competition with each club and there are more options for a pro team to support.

A problem for the Pro12 and Wales in particular is there are too many matches on TV in my opinion as well. Virtually every Welsh game is on free TV.

 

[Peat]

The point I was trying to make is that somebody quite a way out of Llanelli could support the Scarlets as their pro team with the wider spread of teams. Whilst in France for instance, with a densely populated club scene in the south west there is more competition with each club and there are more options for a pro team to support.

A problem for the Pro12 and Wales in particular is there are too many matches on TV in my opinion as well. Virtually every Welsh game is on free TV.

On the other hand, more away fans in densely populated areas, and more general interest so everyone ends up having a club. Plus those people get to games. Rugby supporters in North Wales, or Aberdeen, or Donegal, have the telly.

Which may or may not be a problem. Most AP games are on telly and all can be watched on the internet for free. You can see pretty much every EPL game - usually for free if you have a minor level of internet knowledge - and that's doing ok. Saying people don't go simply because it's on TV is probably not true.

 

[Euain]

Will you still enjoy the game you love?

Is there a fan out there from the English Premiership who hand on heart can say they want to spend the rest of their supporting career travelling between London and Paris for the final of a two dimensional cup.
Forget about the money for a minute. Forget about who has the right to have more teams in the Heineken Cup.
You Real supporters. You have sat with the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italian Support. You have shared pints and stories, Songs and tales of Rugby, Craic, Tears and Laughter. You've discussed the politics of the game. The way things were. The rubbish Scrum rules.
You have slagged the referee, slagged each other, slagged yourselves.
You know how it feels to share the game you love with the Football/Soccer disbelievers. You'll defend your game to the last. Talk up your favourite player who everyone else thinks is a donkey. You've stood in the rain, sleet and snow. Blocked your eyes with your hands when the blinding heatless sun is directly in your face.
You've shared it. Because you all love it. It doesn't matter if your a Lawyer sitting beside an unemployed brickky. Or a Shopkeeper standing beside a student. You are unified.

Can you see this in an Anglo-French collaboration. Are you happy to give up the memories to build up new ones based on money. Will it breed contempt and suspicion between the few top French and English teams that will benefit from it in the short term.

We have a unique game. It's based on giving everyone a chance to play. The fast kid, the lanky kid and the large kid. It's about togetherness and it breaks down borders.

Is a few quid worth poisoning our shared history?