Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[LittleGuy]

In the Sunday Times today both Stephen Jones and Peter O'Reilly have said that Leinster have approached the leaders of the Franco-English alliance about participation. Jones doesn't expand upon it but O'Reilly has a quote from Mick Dawson the Leinster CEO saying they can't afford to be outside European competition. Could the provinces and IRFU be at loggerheads?

It was also suggested that Leinster have proposed a 7-7-8 (English, French, Pro 12) split for Heineken Cup participation.


Interesting in that it could lead to something else. No doubt the Welsh regions would like this proposal. The IRB wouldn't like the fact that Ireland, Scotland and Italy would be left out of the loop. What would be the chances of a B&I League developing with the two Italian teams being absorbed into the Top 14/16?

I think Treviso could do OK as a lower table Top 14 side, especially if they brought in some bigger names to bolster their side, Zebre would be in the 2nd French tier. It would make sense from a travel perspective and probably save the Italian teams a bunch of cash. It wouldn't be out of plausible travelling support distances either and might boost attendances marginally.

 

[Jayatron]

I think Treviso could do OK as a lower table Top 14 side, especially if they brought in some bigger names to bolster their side, Zebre would be in the 2nd French tier. It would make sense from a travel perspective and probably save the Italian teams a bunch of cash. It wouldn't be out of plausible travelling support distances either and might boost attendances marginally.

Far to much common sense for that to ever work.

 

[Draggs]

I'd much rather be in the Prem. Easier access for traveling fans above all. Much more interesting then a winter night at an empty Murrayfield.

 

[Amiga500]

With the amount of stupid ideas and press coming from the PRL over the past few days, I'm starting to come to the conclusion it is all one massive, desperate, bluff.

Most PRL teams are losing money hand over fist. Wray's mob being one of the worst offenders.

Is headline-money of the the BT deal predicated on European competition? Would it fall apart altogether without having the HEC (or equivalent) competition?


We've now (within about the past week) had suggestions of:
- Premiership final fixed for the middle of the 6Nations!
- New competition with the South Africans (and I assume the French too) which would run during T14 play-off time.
- Anglo-Welsh league.
- Competition by invite for the European teams.


They are throwing vastly different ideas around the place. Sound like a bunch that have a serious handle on a tournament that will supposedly begin next season to you?

 

[Packman]

With the amount of stupid ideas and press coming from the PRL over the past few days, I'm starting to come to the conclusion it is all one massive, desperate, bluff.

Most PRL teams are losing money hand over fist. Wray's mob being one of the worst offenders.

Is headline-money of the the BT deal predicated on European competition? Would it fall apart altogether without having the HEC (or equivalent) competition?


We've now (within about the past week) had suggestions of:
- Premiership final fixed for the middle of the 6Nations!
- New competition with the South Africans (and I assume the French too) which would run during T14 play-off time.
- Anglo-Welsh league.
- Competition by invite for the European teams.


They are throwing vastly different ideas around the place. Sound like a bunch that have a serious handle on a tournament that will supposedly begin next season to you?

I was about to type the same sort of post Amiga. My emotions have gone from dispondancy at McCatherty's press release confirming that no negociation was going ahead, despite what ERC said the day before, to perking up a bit when hearing that all the domestic competitions may be given their own slot in the season, to annoyance with PRL and LNR when ERC, rightly in my opinion, accused them of guerilla tactics. Apparently Bill Beumont and the RFU have told PRL that they won't be allowed to set up an anglo french competition. It would be nice if both the French and English unions actually picked a side publically and helped clear this up! Oh and the cherry on top is that another element of PRL have swiftly said that the Aviva premiereship final will be staying in June. Jesus wept.


PRL and LNR are loose cannons having a major public tantrum because they've messed up badly in their negociations with BT. In the same press release about the Aviva moving to the spring we're told that the RFU couldn't stop the anglo french competition even if they tried because BT are pouring £30,000,000 into the competition and then the clubs won't be reliant on RFU funding.... Hmmm That basically means a break away, the size of which hasn't been seen since the 19th century. Which in turn could end Test match careers, not just the english players but George North's career for example too, because thats the last stick the unions would have to beat the clubs with.

Bottom line: I think PRL's £30,000,000 tv deal with BT was for BOTH the Aviva AND the eurocup. But it wasn't PRL's tournament to sell. So the only way they can stop the deal falling though is if they sabotage the Eurocup and break away from ERC. This is going to come out in the media sooner rather than later and then Mark McCatherty is going to look pretty stupid and as rotten as they come.

There's an awful lot of smoke screens floating about but the truth is becoming clear if you ask me. It wouldn't surprise me to see the BT deal fall through before the end of the season, because for all PRL's bluster they can't fullfill their part of the BT deal. They can't deliver the eurocup. and the unions and IRB wont let them becasue it will do serious damage to both Italy and Scotland at test level. No wonder PRL and LNR invited the Celtic clubs to join them. They are desperate for the celts to join them. Without them they are sunk. They need that 30 million quid to gain independance from the RFU. But BT want a eurocup not a poor man's anglo french competition. They want what they paid for. If there is no BT deal then PRL will have to come crawling back to the RFU. Something Bill Beaumont will be quite content with. Make no mistake. The Unions and IRB are watching and biding their time. I don't think any international rugby fan wants to see Italy and Scotland go the way of Romania. Scotland and England are rivals but to lose that rivalry would hurt me as much as any Scottish fan. Beating scotland is brillinat losing to them is hell, but makes next year's confrontation all the more epic. Scotland need top flight eurocup competition to keep themselves afloat. They need elite domestic rugby, so do Italy, thats why they they automatically qualify. Its called development. its about the rugby world growing stronger. The IRB won't let PRL deal a death blow to Scottish rugby.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Conor and Donal talking a lot of sense.

 

[Amiga500]

Conor being a bit efficient with the truth.

The 400K quins recieve is actually a constituent of 12 as its divided between all PRL clubs [£4.8 million for league]. He assumes that the FIR automatically divvy up their [£2.4 million] 50/50 between Treviso and Zebre without using any for grass-roots development etc.


The thing is, the FIR and SRU need this extra money, they don't have the massive support base and infrastructure that the RFU have already in place. After about 8 minutes, Conor talked about SRU investment; where will that money come from?!? Easy to say that from a couch at the RDS.

 

[white bear]

If we talk about the Russian participants of the second tournament, here real candidates:

Enisey-STM (Krasnoyarsk, Siberia) \ "Heavy Machine" - the budget of 5 million euros, the Russian champions, partnership with Panasonic Wildknights (Japan) - attended by 100%, the Central Stadium - 20000 cap
http://fnn.umovo.net/mt/9q/0x/1377179643_15.jpg

Krasny Yar (Krsnoyarsk, Siberia) \ "Falcons" - the budget of 4.5 million euros, the vice-champions and winners of the Cup of Russia, partnership with Crusaders (NZ) - 100% participation, the stadium Krasny Yar - 3300 cap
http://fnn.umovo.net/mt/9q/2o/_Nbtl4B6gHs.jpg
or the Central Stadium

VVA-Saracens (Monino, Moskow Region) \ "Aviators"- 3rd place in the Russian League, pertnership with Saracens (England), the most ***led club in Russia, participation - 95%. Meteor Stadium - 7500 cap
http://fnn.umovo.net/mt/9q/67/65105391.jpg

Strela (Kazan, Central Russia) \ "Dragons"- 4th place in the Russian League, former Rugby League club, attended by 90%. Certral Stadium Kazan - 23000
http://fnn.umovo.net/mt/9q/80/x_b3dc9b2b.jpg
or Tulpar Stadium - 3000 cap
http://fnn.umovo.net/mt/9q/9h/202464415364.jpg

Kuban (Krasnodar, South Russia) \ "Cossacks"- 6th place in the Russian League debutants, former Rugby Seven club, the most promising Russian club, attended by 90%. Kuban Stadium - 35000 cap
http://fnn.umovo.net/mt/9q/wy/113088.jpg

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/sep/16/heineken-cup-premiership-rfu?commentpage=1

 

[Feicarsinn]

Conor being a bit efficient with the truth.

The 400K quins recieve is actually a constituent of 12 as its divided between all PRL clubs [£4.8 million for league]. He assumes that the FIR automatically divvy up their [£2.4 million] 50/50 between Treviso and Zebre without using any for grass-roots development etc.


The thing is, the FIR and SRU need this extra money, they don't have the massive support base and infrastructure that the RFU have already in place. After about 8 minutes, Conor talked about SRU investment; where will that money come from?!? Easy to say that from a couch at the RDS.

Yeah, I think he was being either a bit naive or self serving there in spots. It's very easy to say that changing this will mean that the Scots will have to develop their own players which will bring the game forward in Scotland, but if it hasn't happened for the last fifteen years why should it start when you cut funding? The tactic of the SRU of bringing in Scottish qualified players from overseas is a relatively new one in comparison to how long they've had sides in the HC and how long the national side has been misfiring.

 

[smartcooky]

Some really interesting bits in here

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/irb-needs-to-call-this-bluff-29580346.html

[TEXTAREA]"This whole episode is a great bluff by PRL – they have nothing. They have no television rights. They cannot, under regulation 13.2 of the IRB broadcasting rights, negotiate or enter into any broadcasting rights without the express permission of their union. All parties would also end up in court if they tried to renege on the TV deal with Sky – a deal that both English shareholders signed this year." [/TEXTAREA]

[TEXTAREA]"The IRB could, for instance, forbid any of their referees to officiate in any Anglo-French league. No refs equals no matches. They might possibly forbid any international player from playing in an Anglo-French league. They control the international fixture lists."[/TEXTAREA]
Also

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198793.html

[TEXTAREA]"Lux says the Rugby Football Union, who must ratify any new tournament along with their French counterparts and the International Rugby Board, will not support the new competition. Lux added: "It's not possible. I went to a meeting last week where the chief executive of the RFU Ian Ritchie and the president Bill Beaumont clearly said they had told their clubs there would be no new competition. "Pierre Camou (president of the French Rugby Federation) has clearly indicated in France for some time that there will never be a Anglo-French competition, he's against it. All the federations hope that ERC continues to run the (European) competitions."[/TEXTAREA]


The more articles I read, the more I think Amiga500 is right... the PRL are operating a colossal bluff, and I think the Unions and the iRB are going to call it.

Perhaps now would be a great chance for the RFU to buy up some of the clubs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The more articles O read, the more I thing Amiga500 is right... the PRL are operating a colossal bluff, and I think the Unions and the iRB are going to call it.

Perhaps now would be a great chance for the RFU to buy up some of the clubs.

Certainly wouldn't be the worst outcome from my perspective.

But all this talk of the clubs needing permission from the unions is ignoring the fact that in England and France the club's financiers do have the option of pulling out - I don't doubt some of them will if they don't get what they want.

 

[smartcooky]

Certainly wouldn't be the worst outcome from my perspective.

But all this talk of the clubs needing permission from the unions is ignoring the fact that in England and France the club's financiers do have the option of pulling out - I don't doubt some of them will if they don't get what they want.

Oh they can pull out of the Heineken Cup if they like, but they cannot set up a replacement cross-borders competition. If they do, then they are opting out of Rugby Union altogether, and they could lose a lot of players if the RFU decide to use the money they currently pay to Clubs, to create their own rival Premiership, and then specify to players that they must play in the RFU Premiership to be eligible to play for England.

 

[ratsapprentice]

And lose fans loyal to the clubs? See: Wales...

 

[Packman]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8927657,00.html

I like what Lawence Dallagio has to say about the knock on effects on the international scene, his point of veiw is nothern-hem-centric and could be taken further to discuss the effects that South Africa abandoning super rugby could potentially have on Aus and NZ. Oz would be hit hardest because NZ's domestic scene is strong enough to weather the lack of top quality competition however, they will still get hit very hard in the wallet. No sponsor is going to pay the same cash for a cometition that doesn't have the lucrative SA market involved.

 

[Amiga500]

But all this talk of the clubs needing permission from the unions is ignoring the fact that in England and France the club's financiers do have the option of pulling out - I don't doubt some of them will if they don't get what they want.

Good f**king riddance would be my response.

Do you really want to go down the soccer and bow to the pressure of a few rich *****es who do not have the game's interests at heart?

Let the RFU buy back the clubs in trouble, install commercial managers to these clubs and give the clubs the backer that would have the long term view of "time to buy/build a stadium". Which would put many more of them on a proper solid foundation to build from.

It works well in Ireland. No reason why it cannot do so in England.

 

[Packman]

Conor and Donal talking a lot of sense.

I totally sympathise with what Shane Horgan is saying about what will happen to Scotland without representation in the euro cup.

I also what to get back to talking about delevoping italy and the argument Conor O'Shea puts forward for Zebre playing in the Euroshield.

Quins gets £400,000 to play in the euro cup. Zebre, who haven't won a match in 30 games get's 1.2 million. Okay. So who do you think really needs that 1.2 million to develop? Not Quins. If zebre gets 1.2 million to play in the euro shield then Conor would have a point about the competition being just as good as the euro cup, but we all know clubs get more for playing in the eurocup, thats why the mid table english teams (and to be frank, eurocup also-rans) fight so hard finish the season in the top 6 of the aviva. Sure there's prestiege, but there's also big cash.

It was briefly touched upon that rugby seems to be all about commercial interest, rather than development and helping sides get better. PRL and LNR typify this. they are in it soley for themselves and they'll fight each other in a second, just look at at what happened to london welsh in the religation battle last season. They'll turn on anyone, if it helps feather their own nest. Zebre are pants. How are they going to be able to afford better coaches, better training facilities, a better player scouting program without that 1.2 million??? If they are going to improve then they need financial backing. They don't need to be consigned to the amlin shield where their cut is significantly less. The English Div one sides are screwed over by PRL whenever the get promoted, they don't get the same share of the RFU funding as the other 11 clubs. So is it really unfair that Zebre gets more money that Quins, or is it the best way to develop Italian rugby for the betterment of all. That collective improvement is something that the comercial powers just don't understand. It's an alien concept to businessmen who only pretend to be rugby men. Its capitalism, capitalists don't like to share.

 

[Packman]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8929263,00.html

Another day and finally I think we have sound bite from all interested parties. Welcome to the party IRB.

So, we have ex-players, current players, the Unions, The IRB, The ERC and various assorted celtic and italian clubs arrayed against PRL and LNR.

Being a foolishly optimistic kinda dude I think sanity is going to prevail and we'll still get to see exciting matches like last season's Northampton Vs Glasgow

Stand by for a blustering response from either LNR or PRL later today or tomorrow.

 

[MLB3BB2]

I think a possible compromise is to keep the current total of 24 teams but even out representation by league, i.e., 8 per league. Trimming down to 20 teams makes it too hard to have all countries represented (which IS important) while allowing good sides from the Pro12 to stay in. The top team from each of the four nations in the Pro12 could be included along with the four top finishers among the rest. The top 8 finishers from each of the other two leagues would be included. Problem is that I haven't seen any of the sides show any interest in compromising.

 

[ORothlain]

Sorry, boys... I've not posted in a while, and am late to this convo, but here are my 2 cents:
1. This is a bad move for Northern Hemisphere Rugby. While this may have some benefit for the English and French Clubs, it's a matter of profit over long term success, strength and performance.
2. While I'm fine with the clubs/provinces/whatever owning a competition, it must be a European Competition or it's crap.

I know I'm probably repeating what others have posted, but I must say it.

RTE Prime Time had some good discussion about it this morning:
[video]http://www.rte.ie/player/us/show/10200259/#pos=875[/video]

 

[erwanseb]

Imagine a super XV where Asutralia would take 52% of the TV revenue while SA and NZ would receive 24% each and where Australia would have the majority of the votes, thus controlling the way the tournament is set, all that in the name of rugby development in Australia.

Well that is exactly what is happening in the Heineken cup, where France and England receive 24% each while the Magners league receive 52% and fully control the ERC 4-2.

Without being a greedy selfish capitalist, I call that being f** up and fully understand the club position.

Nobody wants the HC to stop, but the greedy selfish Magners league wants to maintain its hugely inflated part of the revenues and all the jobs of the fat cats working at the ERC HQ in Dublin.