Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[McTallshort]

Imagine a super XV where Asutralia would take 52% of the TV revenue while SA and NZ would receive 24% each and where Australia would have the majority of the votes, thus controlling the way the tournament is set, all that in the name of rugby development in Australia.

Well that is exactly what is happening in the Heineken cup, where France and England receive 24% each while the Magners league receive 52% and fully control the ERC 4-2.

Without being a greedy selfish capitalist, I call that being f** up and fully understand the club position.

Nobody wants the HC to stop, but the greedy selfish Magners league wants to maintain its hugely inflated part of the revenues and all the jobs of the fat cats working at the ERC HQ in Dublin.

And that has what has driven all of this. Say what you want about the greed of the English clubs and it all being a big bluff etc but basic unfairness of the whole ERC set up and the unwillingness to compromise from the pro 12 unions have made this situation.

The Anglo-French clubs have been complaining regards the qualification process for sometime and been ignored, the same went for funding/number of teams/scheduling etc. How can anyone really be surprised when they give notice? Well the ERC were so surprised they chose to ignore it for well over a year and now are making a massive fuss (although its a fuss that can wait 6 weeks to sort out)

The fact is the HC is vital for the Pro 12 but is of less value to the bottom line of French and English clubs who get more from their League and in the English clubs case more from the LV cup.

It was an imperfect system with the balance of power being with the pro 12 unions and will probably be replaced by another imperfect system this time with the balance of power being with the English and French clubs but this will always be the case because one side will be looking after the interests of their union and the other will always be looking at the bottom line.

 

[smartcooky]

Imagine a super XV where Asutralia would take 52% of the TV revenue while SA and NZ would receive 24% each and where Australia would have the majority of the votes, thus controlling the way the tournament is set, all that in the name of rugby development in Australia.

You're comparing apples with oranges. The SANZAR arrangement involves THREE countries each with FIVE teams.

In the HC, England's 24% is all theirs, France's 24% is all theirs, Celtic League's 52% has to be shared four ways between Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy. (about 13% each)

Personally I think what the French and English want goes too far. The revenue should simply be divided by the number of teams, each getting an equal share.

I also think it is no business of the PRL or the LNR how the Pro12 runs their qualification setup.

 

[McTallshort]

You're comparing apples with oranges. The SANZAR arrangement involves THREE countries each with FIVE teams.

In the HC, England's 24% is all theirs, France's 24% is all theirs, Celtic League's 52% has to be shared four ways between Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy. (about 13% each)

Personally I think what the French and English want goes too far. The revenue should simply be divided by the number of teams, each getting an equal share.

I also think it is no business of the PRL or the LNR how the Pro12 runs their qualification setup.

Of course its their business if they are given an unfair advantage or teams in the same group as say Zebre or Edinburgh will get an easier route to the knock out stages than someone in the same group as Munster and Glasgow.

6 teams for the PRL and Pro 12 and 7 for the bigger French league and last years winners hard to see how thats not fair.

 

[smartcooky]

Of course its their business if they are given an unfair advantage or teams in the same group as say Zebre or Edinburgh will get an easier route to the knock out stages than someone in the same group as Munster and Glasgow.

6 teams for the PRL and Pro 12 and 7 for the bigger French league and last years winners hard to see how thats not fair.

Well it depends on whether you want it to be a "European Cup" or a "Biggest Bank-Balance Cup" doesn't it. A European Cup means that each of the Six Nations should be represented.

What if the Pro12 ceased, and each participant country ran its own league. Can you come up with a way to exclude the Scots and Italians then? More to the point, how is it any different with the Pro12 in place.


PS: Zebre beat Cardiff this weekend!

 

[gaston le gaff]

(I also think it is no business of the PRL or the LNR how the Pro12 runs their qualification setup.)

When the Rabo league becomes competitive and teams have to field full strengh, every week, then they could possible have an equal share but that would be in X LIGHT YEARS AWAY There are hardly any teams from the Rabo who would survive week in week out and then play competitive H Cup, that is why there is the Amlin. Only have to ask the non French players in France which is the hardest Championship the reply is always the TOP 14. The Top 14 has squads of 36/40 playersof excellent quality that is the big difference, who can all play at top level, obviously some better than others, eg Montpellier have used lots of combinations this season already, plus we have 10 players injured or still away on International duties but are 2nd at the moment in the TOP 14 This is why qualification and money distribution should be changed, giving the best teams the biggest slice of the cake.

 

[smartcooky]

(I also think it is no business of the PRL or the LNR how the Pro12 runs their qualification setup.)

When the Rabo league becomes competitive and teams have to field full strengh, every week, then they could possible have an equal share but that would be in X LIGHT YEARS AWAY There are hardly any teams from the Rabo who would survive week in week out and then play competitive H Cup, that is why there is the Amlin. Only have to ask the non French players in France which is the hardest Championship the reply is always the TOP 14. The Top 14 has squads of 36/40 playersof excellent quality that is the big difference, who can all play at top level, obviously some better than others, eg Montpellier have used lots of combinations this season already, plus we have 10 players injured or still away on International duties but are 2nd at the moment in the TOP 14 This is why qualification and money distribution should be changed, giving the best teams the biggest slice of the cake.

So you are saying that all the Top 14 teams field full strength every week? Rubbish, they don't, and that is a fact; a verifiable fact.

Players are not allowed to play more than 32 matches each season. 26 Top 14 round robin matches plus six Heineken Cup/Amlin pool matches makes the 32, and that leaves no room for the six playoff matches and 11 test matches (5 x 6N, 3 x June Tours, 3 x AIs)

If what you say was true, then some players would be playing 49 matches each season. Given that there are only 52 weeks in the year, and the Top 14 takes breaks during the season (including Christmas, New Year and Easter) and a 10 week break between seasons, then I call BS on that.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

(I also think it is no business of the PRL or the LNR how the Pro12 runs their qualification setup.)

When the Rabo league becomes competitive and teams have to field full strengh, every week, then they could possible have an equal share but that would be in X LIGHT YEARS AWAY There are hardly any teams from the Rabo who would survive week in week out and then play competitive H Cup, that is why there is the Amlin. Only have to ask the non French players in France which is the hardest Championship the reply is always the TOP 14. The Top 14 has squads of 36/40 playersof excellent quality that is the big difference, who can all play at top level, obviously some better than others, eg Montpellier have used lots of combinations this season already, plus we have 10 players injured or still away on International duties but are 2nd at the moment in the TOP 14 This is why qualification and money distribution should be changed, giving the best teams the biggest slice of the cake.

The best teams? I.e. the ones with the most money in the first place?

 

[McTallshort]

Well it depends on whether you want it to be a "European Cup" or a "Biggest Bank-Balance Cup" doesn't it. A European Cup means that each of the Six Nations should be represented.

What if the Pro12 ceased, and each participant country ran its own league. Can you come up with a way to exclude the Scots and Italians then? More to the point, how is it any different with the Pro12 in place.


PS: Zebre beat Cardiff this weekend!

Sorry how does the 20 team proposal stop it being a European cup? And if it was a true European cup why only include teams from 6 Nation union?

Dont get the point everyone is trying to make regards Scottish rugby when Glasgow would have qualified no problem last season and are currently top of the Rbo 12.

 

[Feicarsinn]

(I also think it is no business of the PRL or the LNR how the Pro12 runs their qualification setup.)

When the Rabo league becomes competitive and teams have to field full strengh, every week, then they could possible have an equal share but that would be in X LIGHT YEARS AWAY There are hardly any teams from the Rabo who would survive week in week out and then play competitive H Cup, that is why there is the Amlin. Only have to ask the non French players in France which is the hardest Championship the reply is always the TOP 14. The Top 14 has squads of 36/40 playersof excellent quality that is the big difference, who can all play at top level, obviously some better than others, eg Montpellier have used lots of combinations this season already, plus we have 10 players injured or still away on International duties but are 2nd at the moment in the TOP 14 This is why qualification and money distribution should be changed, giving the best teams the biggest slice of the cake.

You're right son, that's why French teams should get even less. How dare they not put out their strongest sides in away games???

The hypocrisy of the French in particular is absolutely blinding on this matter. According to them the Rabo teams get it easier because they don't put out their strongest team all the time, but when the French sides do it it's because their squads are okay so it's all still super awesome. I call BS.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Before going off on this rant, I'd like to state that I've no problem with ERC being disbanded and a new European competition being put in place under the authority of a new body. I do have a problem with how PRL and LNR and going about their coup though.

When the Rabo league becomes competitive and teams have to field full strengh, every week, then they could possible have an equal share but that would be in X LIGHT YEARS AWAY

Interesting. Racing Metro's starting team this weekend:
http://www.racing-metro92.com/en/Resultats-59-4084.html
No starting place for big money summer signing Jonny Sexton. Not a word about this from the British or Irish media yet when a Pro 12 team rests a player it's considered that they don't take their league seriously.

The truth is that LNR and PRL couldn't care less about how the Pro 12 is structured or how they qualify. What they want to do is grab as much money as they can and are disguising it in any way possible. I've no problem with making a **** load of money, just come out and be honest about it being your primary objective. I suspect you know this too.

Sorry how does the 20 team proposal stop it being a European cup? And if it was a true European cup why only include teams from 6 Nation union?

This is something which isn't often brought up and should be highlighted. Under the existing structure, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever see a team from outside the 6 Nations compete in the European Cup again. The established leagues are now too strong and miles better than anything else. The Franglais proposal won't help this either since it's primarily concerned with boosting revenue streams in the short term for it's member clubs (understandably). I like how ice hockey's KHL has slowly expanded from Russia westward into the rest of Europe, into Kazakhstan and potentially eastward into Asia. They've done so by having a "closed" franchise system with no relegation - in rugby parlance that would be the Top 14, Premiership and Pro 12 grouping together, abandoning their leagues and slowly pushing eastwards to Germany, Georgia, Russia, Romania and southwards to Spain (where Barcelona and Real Madrid previously expressed interest in getting into rugby) one team at a time. It's hard to argue that there wouldn't be teething problems but before long you could have a 40 team truly pan-European competition, grow the international game and an expanded TV market creating more revenue for everyone.

The Franglais competition skews things so that the French and English clubs become too powerful in my opinion. The Mara family who own (owned?) the New York Giants NFL franchise could have earned a quick buck by being based in the largest media market in North America. Instead they sponsored the proposal which saw all teams grow together equally by way of an equal distribution of TV revenue. This is often credited with leading to the explosion in interest in the NFL throughout the USA. The parallels with rugby in Europe are enormous. should the English and French clubs make a quick buck which their market dictates they should, or should they take the long term view and grow the share equally for everyone so nobody gets left behind?

 

[JONES555]

In last years Heineken cup, there were seven French teams, six English, four Irish, three Welsh, two Scottish, and two Italian teams.


Since Wasps won the competition in 2007, the Irish have fielded three sides in the HC between 2008 and 2011, and four sides in the competition since 2012. Despite this, Leinster won the trophy in 2009, 2011 and 2012, Munster won it in 2008, and Ulster were finalists in 2012. I think this proves that having more English sides in the competition will not increase their chances of winning it.


Furthermore, I think it's absolutely vital we have automatic representation for each nation in Europe in the Heineken cup. Doing so brings the competition to a larger audience, it helps promote rugby throughout Europe, and I believe it helps improve the quality of rugby throughout Europe.


I find the notion that the English and French leagues should have equal representation to the Rabo Pro 12 in the HC, absurd. The Rabo pro 12 is a provincial league. There are 4 welsh, 4 Irish, 2 Scottish, and 2 Italian teams in this competition. There are obviously more clubs in each of these nations, however, they aren't in the top flight, and so none of them make the Heineken cup.


If Premiership clubs are annoyed they have to work harder to get into the Heineken cup, then maybe they should change their domestic league. How about Anglo-French league, with places guaranteed to the top teams from each country. I think the evidence shows pretty clearly that the provincial systems work. I'm pretty sure such a system would help to improve the English national side.


Whereas I think having an Anglo-French cup will be absolute suicide for Northern Hemisphere rugby. I believe by ensuring the only time Celtic and Italian teams face the English and French teams is during the six nations, this will result in a dip in quality in Northern Hemisphere rugby right across the board. So Southern Hemisphere dominance, cricket score losses to Southern hemisphere sides, and no more 2003's for England. That's the legacy that's being written for us.

 

[profitius]

Of course its their business if they are given an unfair advantage or teams in the same group as say Zebre or Edinburgh will get an easier route to the knock out stages than someone in the same group as Munster and Glasgow.

6 teams for the PRL and Pro 12 and 7 for the bigger French league and last years winners hard to see how thats not fair.

So what you're really saying is its unfair that Pro 12 players are better managed?! Great way for the club owners to twist things. They (most of them) overplay their players and cry if other teams have better player management structures in place.


As for the French complaining about Pro 12 teams resting players. Before some European games in the last few seasons the French clubs changed their entire 15 players for a league match!!! In fact they do it all the time, basically throwing the games they play away from home. Just look at some of the massive scorelines if you don't believe me. They then complain about Pro 12 teams doing less. The mind boggles.

 

[profitius]

Imagine a super XV where Asutralia would take 52% of the TV revenue while SA and NZ would receive 24% each and where Australia would have the majority of the votes, thus controlling the way the tournament is set, all that in the name of rugby development in Australia.

Well that is exactly what is happening in the Heineken cup, where France and England receive 24% each while the Magners league receive 52% and fully control the ERC 4-2.

Without being a greedy selfish capitalist, I call that being f** up and fully understand the club position.

Nobody wants the HC to stop, but the greedy selfish Magners league wants to maintain its hugely inflated part of the revenues and all the jobs of the fat cats working at the ERC HQ in Dublin.

The HEC was created by the unions. Just letting you know. They English and French had less clubs involved before but were allowed more clubs to join it. The English and French get twice as much as the Pro12 Unions get or at least their unions do. I did hear that the RFU takes a big cut of the HEC money but how the individual unions decide to divide the money is an internal issue.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'd like to bring one of the funding issues up while we're at it. One of the big complaints from the English and French sides has been the issue that they only get 24% of the tournament earnings while the Celtic sides get the remaining 52% divided amongst them. Now if we're to assume that this 52% is divided equally it means each nation gets 13%, substantially less than the English and French take home.

Now as things stand we provide four teams to the tournament. That means that each of our teams would get 3.25% of the competition earnings everything being equal. A French or English side on the other hand would get 4% meaning that as things stand the French and English are getting a better financial deal than the Irish sides in the current setup. Do we particularly give a ****? No, because we aren't a bunch of short sighted money grabbing fools.

 

[McTallshort]

isnt the biggest problem here the Pro 12 is a regional league managed by the unions and the Anglo-French leagues are managed by clubs and everyone wants different thing?

There never will be a decent compromise to this unless the pro 12 unions all form their own pro leagues or the English and French embrace a regional model none of which will happen so lets see what happens over the next 12 months......

 

[smartcooky]

isnt the biggest problem here the Pro 12 is a regional league managed by the unions and the Anglo-French leagues are managed by clubs and everyone wants different thing?

There never will be a decent compromise to this unless the pro 12 unions all form their own pro leagues or the English and French embrace a regional model none of which will happen so lets see what happens over the next 12 months......

Why?

Surely, dividing the Celtic League into separate competitions will severely weaken the individual Celtic teams in a European Cup! The Welsh teams would be weakened to a level just above that of the Welsh Premiership, and financially, I don't think Scotland could support more than two professional teams anyway.

 

[McTallshort]

Why?

Surely, dividing the Celtic League into separate competitions will severely weaken the individual Celtic teams in a European Cup! The Welsh teams would be weakened to a level just above that of the Welsh Premiership, and financially, I don't think Scotland could support more than two professional teams anyway.

Please read it again carefully.....

 

[McTallshort]

So what you're really saying is its unfair that Pro 12 players are better managed?! Great way for the club owners to twist things. They (most of them) overplay their players and cry if other teams have better player management structures in place.


As for the French complaining about Pro 12 teams resting players. Before some European games in the last few seasons the French clubs changed their entire 15 players for a league match!!! In fact they do it all the time, basically throwing the games they play away from home. Just look at some of the massive scorelines if you don't believe me. They then complain about Pro 12 teams doing less. The mind boggles.

No I am saying that if you are in a group containing Zebre or Edinburgh progression is easier than being in a group containing Munster or Glasgow.

 

[JONES555]

No I am saying that if you are in a group containing Zebre or Edinburgh progression is easier than being in a group containing Munster or Glasgow.

Probably, but that happens in just about every cup in every team sport. What I don't get is why the English want more teams in the competition? They certainly can't justify this move in terms of their teams performances in the last few years. In addition, I'm pretty sure that whatever nation you are, having more than four sides in the HC, will not increase your nation's chances of winning the competition. It's a pointless strategy. What's important is improving the performance of the team's you have in the competition. It's not a numbers game.

 

[McTallshort]

Probably, but that happens in just about every cup in every team sport. What I don't get is why the English want more teams in the competition? They certainly can't justify this move in terms of their teams performances in the last few years. In addition, I'm pretty sure that whatever nation you are, having more than four sides in the HC, will not increase your nation's chances of winning the competition. It's a pointless strategy. What's important is improving the performance of the team's you have in the competition. It's not a numbers game.

The English clubs dont they want the competition reduced to 20 team........