Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[j_remos]

That's an interesting take on things from a SA point of veiw. I see where you are coming from especially as far as playing style and referee interpretation goes. It would be good for SA. It would devastate Antipodian rugby though. As a keen test match rugby fan I can't support that, so I hope it doesn't happen.

Perhaps if SARU leave they will invite Japan / Tonga / Samoa etc to bring some teams in. Might be a good thing in that case.

I would quite like to play against South African teams. Would be very challenging. I do however still want the chance to play the Rabo teams. So i hope they will come on board.

 

[Peat]

Nothing against South African teams, but you can hardly pop over for an away match, and there's no history there. If it's on TV I guess I'll watch it but its not jump up and down levels of interest. I note Sarries shelved their plans to play a HEC game down there quick enough.

Also, English rugby is bosh orientated enough without playing the French and Saffas all the time.

Really, the main reason I see for this from our point of view is money.

 

[dullonien]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I can understand where PRL etc. are coming from in terms of revenue. They want each team in the competition getting an equal share, so if just 6 teams qualified from the Pro12 to match the 6 from the Top 14 and Prem, then each side would get exactly the same amount. Is it fair that Leinster get more than Leicester for example?

I suppose the big problem is with the sudden and very drastic change in how the money is split. Regardless of it being fair, of course sides aren't going to be happy with this drastic change, and that's where a little give and take needed to come into play.

Maybe it was wrong for me to look at things from a national standpoint. However I believe that in the past, negotiations were made between all the represented national unions, but since the formation of the PRL, they have taken over from the RFU with regards to issues surrounding the English clubs. But the Pro12 sides are all still represented by their national unions, who probably see things very different, not necessarily from a per club/region/province standpoint, but from a national standpoint where having 66% of the revenue going to just 2/6 of the nations involved is completely unacceptable.

In an ideal world every team in the HC would be an an equal footing to every other. Each nation would have the same number of sides involved, they would all gain qualification in exactly the same way from leagues which all followed the same format. Every side would have the same saliry cap to make things fair and ensure ultimate competition. The problem is, this certainly isn't the case. Surely the biggest issue here is the fact that French clubs have substantially bigger budgets, which no-one can compete with, not the fact that the Pro12 sides get a little more of the revenue and can rest their players ore often. But I get the feeling that the PRL feel that they and the French clubs hold all the bargaining power and can bully the smaller Celtic and Italian nations.

Maybe the Pro12 sides will be able to join this new competition, but it'll be under the terms of the PRL and FIR, which will likely give us nothing.

 

[Amiga500]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I can understand where PRL etc. are coming from in terms of revenue. They want each team in the competition getting an equal share, so if just 6 teams qualified from the Pro12 to match the 6 from the Top 14 and Prem, then each side would get exactly the same amount. Is it fair that Leinster get more than Leicester for example?

I can understand where the big teams in the PRL are coming from - pure unadulterated greed and protection of their own status within their own country. The others in the Premiership haven't thought it through (nor have the RFU). It will quite quickly create a gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots", in much the same way soccer clubs are scrambling to get into the champions league.

Good luck looking for the next Exeter.

Maybe the Pro12 sides will be able to join this new competition, but it'll be under the terms of the PRL and FIR, which will likely give us nothing.

What new competition? Its a long way from a press release by a clown to having a viable and accepted competition.

Who in the IRB is going to sanction this renegade competition?
What happens the current IRB and national union sanctioned organising group, the ERC?
If the ERC is to be replaced, what replaces it? Will the IRB sanction it? Will the national unions sanction it?


McCafferty has a bit of paper from BT saying they'll pay him money for a European competition. He has absolutely nothing from the official organising bodies of Rugby Union. Trying to bully the national unions, the ERC and the IRB all at once is likely to go down as well as a fart in a space suit.

 

[Packman]

Here is a nice article outlining the positives. There will be some negatives too obviously, but as a Springbok fan, I honestly think we need to get out of the SH competition. Super Rugby is a joke the way it is structured at the moment.

http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/column/details/sa-should-say-goodbye-to-super-rugby

Here's why that would be a good idea:

Yeah, that spells out the benefits for SA nicely. I had to re-read point 4 but I think he's talking about mental fatigue.

I'm worried, because several unions are going to have the rug pulled out from underneath them. This could result in the biggest shift in the international game since 1995. What you propose is undeniably good for South African Rugby and we all want to have the best national team in the world but that doesn't count for as much if the competition is poor. Everyone wants to beat NZ, if you beat Italy then basically, you don't get shouted at and told to resign. So what happens if scotland's two professional clubs end up with no decent competition? It could end with Scotland reverting to amatuerisim. Ireland have progressed massively since the 1999 RWC, but they need top class club competition to maintain it. Australia are in trouble already with their lack of depth up and refusal to re-evaluate their rugby culture to come in line with the 21st century (they are stuck in the 80's with the Ella brothers running rings around fat forwards with beer bellies - the rest of the world has accepted that its the forwards that win you test matches) Even NZ will feel the pinch because there just won't be the same sponsorship attraction for a Southern Hem club competition without SA. Realistically The south sea island and japanese clubs are not going to be able to compete with the NZ francises. It would be a competition with no competition, a dead rubber, who'd pay to see that?

okay, conspiracy time: I think if South Africa did end up playing in the Northern hem then it could be the catalyst that would bring the unions to their knees I think Scotland would be the first to flat line. It would allow the millionaires to take over the sport, and isn't that exactly what the English and French club owners want? it was only 2004 that the RFU and English clubs had a massive club v country war that dominated the rugby headlines in England. Get rid of the SRU and I bet you'll see a few fat cats ready to raise up some scottish rugby teams chock full of foreigners. Maybe the football model where professionalism leads??? Urgh! How's that for a nightmare senario? I don't like the direction England and France are taking rugby union.

No more eurocup. Us fans no matter if you are English, French, Italy or Celtic, have been hung out to dry. Which is why I desperatley hope that The players take a bit of responsibility, talk it through in meetings organisied by the player unions and force a rethink before every club in this sport turns into Toulon clones.

 

[dullonien]

Anyone know if there's even a possibility of a rogue league that isn't necessarily sanctioned by the national unions, or the IRB?

From what I understand (i.e. no real sources), the PRL may have approached the Welsh regions directly regarding joining this proposed new league, and thus if any Welsh region did join, it would possibly be without WRU permission. Considering the amount of money the regions get from the WRU, I doubt this would be possible. This would be flat out impossible for the Irish provinces, considering they are under IRFU control.

It is starting to sound more and more like a bluff to me, hoping the Pro12 unions back down to their demands.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Bluster would appear to be the word for it: http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/198023.html

The timing of the whole thing was a bit sketchy. There was supposed to be a meeting of the parties involved today in any case so to make an announcement the day before (and after business hours too) is a tad suspect.

In any case, the last line of that link is the kicker. If they need IRB approval and the approval of the unions where the tournament is to take place any breakaway by the LNR and the PRL may just be shot down automatically.

 

[Peat]

Apparently the Times reckon approval will be unlikely, particularly from the FFR.

 

[j_remos]

Apparently the Times reckon approval will be unlikely, particularly from the FFR.

I would not be so sure. The clubs have a lot of influence behind the scenes WRT player release. And as we all agree its all down to money. If The Unions think they will get some more cash out of a different competition they will soon U-Turn and give themselves a nice big party to celebrate.

The IRB would note dare to prevent this as its agains all kinds of Trade laws. (I hope)

 

[j'nuh]

Isn't the solution just simple?

Choose a percentage of money split between the clubs appearing in the tournament, and the unions... say x% for the clubs and (100 - x)% for the unions.

Each club appearing in the group stages receives (x / 20)% or (x / 24)% (depending on the number of teams in the set up), so that each team receives an equal share. Perhaps an additional rewards-based system for reaching quarters/semis/finals. (Although I think the positive vibes and gate receipts are big enough of a reward anyway.)

I think reducing the size of the tournament is a great idea. Zebre and Edinburgh have no right to be there for a start, and fewer teams means tighter games.

The unions argue over how to split their (100 - x)% between themselves. If the Scottish and Italians then want to prop up their clubs with their share of the funding, then that's fair enough.

 

[BasqueBete]

Lmfao, barely 2 weeks since some cage rattlers were up in arms about comments alluding to the fact that the rattle is a joke and will be left behind

Wtf will there be left to live for without the hcup for some parties? 6 n? Lmfao,

 

[Peat]

I would not be so sure. The clubs have a lot of influence behind the scenes WRT player release. And as we all agree its all down to money. If The Unions think they will get some more cash out of a different competition they will soon U-Turn and give themselves a nice big party to celebrate.

The IRB would note dare to prevent this as its agains all kinds of Trade laws. (I hope)

Take it up with the Times, not me - assuming my source is correct. Stupid paywall.

Although I'd note that the likelihood of the Unions getting more money out of a competition where the Leagues are the shareholders, not the Unions, seems somewhere between "Non-existent" and "Zero".

 

[dasNdanger]

Can someone give us (well, me) a Whatever the Hell is Going on in Rugby for Dummies? Sounds to me like we're talking not just a regional shake-up, but a worldwide shake-up...unless, of course, people have taken a small suggested change and turned it into the Great Hypothetical Rugby Union Restructuring Plan of the Ages.




das

 

[ratsapprentice]

At the moment there is just potential for change - it could be massive or pretty much unnoticeable for fans.

 

[smartcooky]

The IRB would note dare to prevent this as its agains all kinds of Trade laws. (I hope)

Not really the iRB that would be doing it.

The FFR could scupper the French teams' bid to join though, as the LNR must get LEGAL approval to join or be part of any competition. Trade Laws have nothing to do with it.

 

[Amiga500]

The IRB would note dare to prevent this as its agains all kinds of Trade laws. (I hope)

Not the case - otherwise the large soccer teams would have broke away from UEFA/FIFA years ago.

 

[Peat]

They might challenge it in the courts. I have no way of knowing, or of what the likely result would be.

But the closest comparable case I can think of is the Bosman ruling, and that took a good two years. That's a pretty nuclear option.

 

[Amiga500]

That's a pretty nuclear option.

Very.

If folks think this is messy...


You'd also have every major sporting organisation row in behind the IRB. You simply cannot have select groups step outside governing bodies when it doesn't suit them.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Very.

If folks think this is messy...


You'd also have every major sporting organisation row in behind the IRB. You simply cannot have select groups step outside governing bodies when it doesn't suit them.

Interesting point. You'd imagine that UEFA would be paying serious attention to any set precedent considering their issues with the G14.

 

[Dougydeluxe]

Their are two issues here that are directly ties to the "Greed" of everyone.

First: The ERC has to many stakeholders. You have each Union, The LNR and PRL, the clubs, and then a smaller degree the players. Each one of these groups have unique agendas outside of just bringing the most money back to their group. This makes it very tough to come to any compromise.

With the American sports there are only ever two parties. The League (represents all the owners) & the Players.

The second issue is that they only stakeholders that will be hurt the most are the Fans... It is ridiculous that any or all of the parties are risking to jeopardize their fan base just for more money. Rugby Union is a great sport, but still has a ways to go to be come financially successful and also have the popularity of the other big sports.