Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Peat]

The latest from the ERC - http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/22269.php#.UjDh98akpxX

"Despite recent reports, all parties involved in the formulation of a new ERC Accord, including the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) and Premiership Rugby, have reaffirmed their commitment to the process. A meeting focused solely on the negotiations will be convened by ERC as soon as practicable.

It was agreed at a scheduled ERC Board meeting in Dublin today (Wednesday, 11 September 2013) that ERC would facilitate the discussions and that the current points of difference, including the share of central revenues, qualification and season dates, would all be on the table.

The Board reiterated that European club competitions must be organised by ERC and that any purported cross-border club tournaments needed the approval both of the IRB, and of the relevant Unions who are shareholders of ERC.

Surprise was expressed at the timing and content of yesterday's media announcements by the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) and Premiership Rugby, and representatives of both bodies were invited to explain their positions.

It was pointed out that there was a range of proposals made by stakeholders, none of which were acceptable to all parties, and it was agreed that the negotiations towards a definitive solution needed to begin again in earnest.
Attendees at today's ERC Board meeting
Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)
René Bouscatel (Ligue Nationale de Rugby)
Olivier Keraudren (Federation Française de Rugby)
Philip Browne (Irish Rugby Football Union)
Peter Boyle (Irish Rugby Football Union)
Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
Roy Headey (Rugby Football Union)
Ian McLauchlan (Scottish Rugby)
Dominic McKay (Scottish Rugby)
Roger Lewis (Welsh Rugby Union)
Stuart Gallacher (Regional Rugby Wales)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (Federazione Italiana Rugby)
Derek McGrath (ERC Chief Executive)"

The Board reiterated that European club competitions must be organised by ERC and that any purported cross-border club tournaments needed the approval both of the IRB, and of the relevant Unions who are shareholders of ERC.

If this is true, this is the most pointless bluff ever. All very confusing.

 

[Draggs]

Roger is there, the day is saved!

 

[dullonien]

Stuart Gallacher is there, we're all doomed!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Nothing against South African teams, but you can hardly pop over for an away match, and there's no history there. If it's on TV I guess I'll watch it but its not jump up and down levels of interest. I note Sarries shelved their plans to play a HEC game down there quick enough.

Also, English rugby is bosh orientated enough without playing the French and Saffas all the time.

Really, the main reason I see for this from our point of view is money.

I get that but you can't deny that a Leicester vs Blue Bulls or Ulster vs WP has a lot more to it than anyone vs Zebre or some of the weaker teams in there ATM and the rivalry will develop soon enough. You'll also find soon enough that the SA provincial teams bar WP play with a lot more pace and width than you'd imagine especially the Cheetahs, Lions and Griquas. The travel would be a new factor for European sides coming here even if for us going up North is actually less of a factor than we currently have to deal with. I would argue though that having your sides travel more to the SH would mean your test sides might benefit from the increased experience (travel wise and being more used to 'alien' atmospheres) your players would get during regular club seasons. We are more competitive and would be more lucrative financially to have on board.

 

[coolbawn]

What is worth protecting in Raboland and how could the English and French help themselves ? Here goes ...

The best things to me about the Rabo are that it's a franchise (so no relegation), it's not super hard to qualify for the HEC (except Connacht and the Dragons to date) and you can finish 4th and still win the league (as in the other leagues). Add in the fact that in Ireland and Scotland the clubs are owned by the union. Why are these 4 factors important ? Because following these pro clubs - even from a distance - is a fascinating version of following progress of players through your local club; the format allows you to see the nippers progressing from school competitions, under-age interpros (in Ireland), under-age internationals, academies, B&I Cup teams, less stressful Rabo matches, key Rabo matches and then into the HEC team. Nothing pleases those sort of supporters more than to see almost 100% home-bred teams, bolstered only as necessary by imports - especially as home-grown players are cheaper and fit the tight budgets. Leinster and Munster probably play 45-50 players in their first team at some stage during each season (and more will play in the B&I Cup team); all but about 5 will be Irish. Bearing in mind that players mature and progress at different ages, that gives them the best chance to "make it" as rugby players. Plus the players don't get dangerously knackered. So it's good for the supporters and it's good for the players. I imagine that "proper" Eng and French supporters would love to see their local nippers coming right through and not being barged out of the way by foreigners merely because the foreigners are a few years older.

So the starting point should be that the above model is good and should be protected and emulated as much as possible - not destroyed by jealous outsiders in commercially-owned PRL and France. That's not to say that there's no room for tweaking. The country winning the HEC or Amlin shouldn't get an extra club in the next HEC. At the moment the Amlin seems a better fit for Zebre. Scotland should keep 2 teams because Edinburgh have only had a dip and the right structure is in place to succeed again soon (in my opinion).

What can Eng and France learn and use ? They aren't going to be owned by their union or become relegation-free franchises. So my only idea revolves around making qualification "easier" so they aren't knackered for the HEC (which is what they moan about). Why should qualification involve ALL league matches throughout the season ? The PRL could arrange a fixture list whereby only half the matches are HEC qualifiers. Each club would play every other club once in HEC qualifiers. HEC qualifying weekends would be when the internationalists are available and when it gives the clubs the best chance to prepare for HEC weekends. All matches would still count towards relegation. The strongest clubs would not be worried about relegation so they would have a little scope for playing (hopefully locally produced) squad players on some non-HEC qualifying weekends.

Just an idea. I don't have time to think it through. Is there any merit ?

Actually I don't think it's even necessary. The new Eng and French TV deals and the ever-tightening budgets in Raboland virtually guarantee that the French and English are / are about to be plenty strong enough anyway; remember that even Leinster and Munster have always had to fight like fury to squeak out of their groups even in years when they won the HEC. Plus Eng and Fr will no doubt bully their way to a ridiculous share of any HEC takings (good post #33 by dullonien re Eng & Fr demanding 33% each while others get 8.25% each). Plus they have massive pools of local talent. But if they STILL really think that they need more help to beat up the minnows, then why not first consider easing their own qualification mechanism.

If I was an Eng or Fr club I'd be ashamed or I'd just admit that it really is just about the money, then the rest might have a bit of respect. Someone this evening was saying that an arbitrator might be brought in. Good idea but he'll have to be good to sort this out.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Making the Top14 or Premiership less competitive is not possible.
They are held in too high a regard by the clubs.

Even if you did, tv and attendance figures would go way down - who would that benefit?

If the Rabo was made more competitive by introducing European qualification then the weaker teams would be able to develope more in their domestic competition and then play in whichever Euro comp is appropriate for them.

 

[Packman]

What is worth protecting in Raboland and how could the English and French help themselves ? Here goes ...

The best things to me about the Rabo are that it's a franchise (so no relegation), it's not super hard to qualify for the HEC (except Connacht and the Dragons to date) and you can finish 4th and still win the league (as in the other leagues). Add in the fact that in Ireland and Scotland the clubs are owned by the union. Why are these 4 factors important ? Because following these pro clubs - even from a distance - is a fascinating version of following progress of players through your local club; the format allows you to see the nippers progressing from school competitions, under-age interpros (in Ireland), under-age internationals, academies, B&I Cup teams, less stressful Rabo matches, key Rabo matches and then into the HEC team. Nothing pleases those sort of supporters more than to see almost 100% home-bred teams, bolstered only as necessary by imports - especially as home-grown players are cheaper and fit the tight budgets. Leinster and Munster probably play 45-50 players in their first team at some stage during each season (and more will play in the B&I Cup team); all but about 5 will be Irish. Bearing in mind that players mature and progress at different ages, that gives them the best chance to "make it" as rugby players. Plus the players don't get dangerously knackered. So it's good for the supporters and it's good for the players. I imagine that "proper" Eng and French supporters would love to see their local nippers coming right through and not being barged out of the way by foreigners merely because the foreigners are a few years older.

So the starting point should be that the above model is good and should be protected and emulated as much as possible - not destroyed by jealous outsiders in commercially-owned PRL and France. That's not to say that there's no room for tweaking. The country winning the HEC or Amlin shouldn't get an extra club in the next HEC. At the moment the Amlin seems a better fit for Zebre. Scotland should keep 2 teams because Edinburgh have only had a dip and the right structure is in place to succeed again soon (in my opinion).

What can Eng and France learn and use ? They aren't going to be owned by their union or become relegation-free franchises. So my only idea revolves around making qualification "easier" so they aren't knackered for the HEC (which is what they moan about). Why should qualification involve ALL league matches throughout the season ? The PRL could arrange a fixture list whereby only half the matches are HEC qualifiers. Each club would play every other club once in HEC qualifiers. HEC qualifying weekends would be when the internationalists are available and when it gives the clubs the best chance to prepare for HEC weekends. All matches would still count towards relegation. The strongest clubs would not be worried about relegation so they would have a little scope for playing (hopefully locally produced) squad players on some non-HEC qualifying weekends.

Just an idea. I don't have time to think it through. Is there any merit ?

Actually I don't think it's even necessary. The new Eng and French TV deals and the ever-tightening budgets in Raboland virtually guarantee that the French and English are / are about to be plenty strong enough anyway; remember that even Leinster and Munster have always had to fight like fury to squeak out of their groups even in years when they won the HEC. Plus Eng and Fr will no doubt bully their way to a ridiculous share of any HEC takings (good post #33 by dullonien re Eng & Fr demanding 33% each while others get 8.25% each). Plus they have massive pools of local talent. But if they STILL really think that they need more help to beat up the minnows, then why not first consider easing their own qualification mechanism.

If I was an Eng or Fr club I'd be ashamed or I'd just admit that it really is just about the money, then the rest might have a bit of respect. Someone this evening was saying that an arbitrator might be brought in. Good idea but he'll have to be good to sort this out.

I agree with alot of what you've said Coolbawn. Scotland and italy need exposure to the eurocup to stay internationally viable. Right now Scotland haven't a dog's chance of winning a tournament but at least they have the potential of a one off upset that can derail someone else's ***le chances. If you take that elite European proving ground away then we are hurting our international game. It doesn't matter if you aren't Scottish. You want these games to matter. The buzz we get from beating a worthy opponents is very different to the feeling we get when we beat Spain for example in a world cup pool. Hell, if you fail to beat them by 50 points then you actually walk away feeling depressed! PRL and the French are in this for themselves and they don't care if they kill off rugby in scotland. I'm english, I hate losing to scotland and I love beating them. But scottish rugby hangs by two threads, two professional clubs, and PRL don't think they should have Euro-cup exposure. Life would be a hell of alot more boring if the SRU were forced to go amateur and went the way of Romania because they couldn't afford to play with the big boys.

Rugby has always been about helping out, be it something small like helping your club mate's when they move house or something incredible like like raising money for a paralysed rugby player, Help the Heroes or opening the doors and letting the pitch become a field hospital after an earthquake then getting out there and rescuing people out of the rubble. That actually happened a couple of years ago and was reported by the IRB's Total Rugby TV magazine. It's something its something rugby should rightly be proud of and take extremily seriously and I find it soul destroying that Mark McCatherty of PRL doesn't give a damn about anything but his fat wallet. That's not rugby. And as far as the players just going along with it... I'm not sure how they can look at themselves in the mirror. If Damian Hopley's player union wasn't created for times like these then what on earth is it's point???

 

[coolbawn]

Making the Top14 or Premiership less competitive is not possible.
They are held in too high a regard by the clubs.

Even if you did, tv and attendance figures would go way down - who would that benefit?

If the Rabo was made more competitive by introducing European qualification then the weaker teams would be able to develope more in their domestic competition and then play in whichever Euro comp is appropriate for them.

Not convinced that it would look or be less competitive. I reckon that the young shavers given their chance by strong teams in non-HEC qualifying games would play full-on whereas more mature overseas players who are forced to play week-in-week-out tend to be less intense in some matches. You might be right but it's not what I notice watching lots of Rabo matches.

By the way, I reckon every Rabo match is held in very high regard by every Rabo coach. It's just that they juggle their teams to balance the desire to rest players, give nippers a sniff and win with a bonus point or just nick a losing bonus point from a match they know they probably can't win.

Not convinced that TV audiences would fall at all. I reckon many supporters are more interested in watching - say - local England U20 players given a few chances a season than non-trophy overseas players playing in every match. But again, you might be right.

I do agree that it's not the end of the world to play in the Amlin if that's more suitable and IF the Amlin is redesigned. So (to argue against my previous post) maybe only 1 Scottish team should get into the HEC by right. Currently therefore, Edinburgh would go into the Amlin and that might be fine as long as the Amlin didn't include the clubs who are currently hammered 80-0 in the Amlin. We need a third competition for those clubs to make every Amlin match competitive, interesting and commercially viable.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The fact that they can afford to rest players tells a story.

 

[coolbawn]

That's the point ! The story it tells is that the good things about Raboland are that the clubs CAN rest players (in a brutal sport) and therefore involve more local players and provide greater variety of entertainment for the supporters and TV viewers over the course of the season. I'm not a Wales supporter but if I watch - say - Ospreys v Connacht and Ospreys decide they are strong enough to beat Connacht at home while also giving a start to a demon U20 player, then that adds to the fascination and I'm more likely to switch on the TV and watch that than to watch the same old overseas 29-year-olds hogging the teamsheet places in an Aviva match.

The English and French should use some creative thinking and try to create the same environment instead of jealously trying to break what is working elsewhere.

That's always assume that I'm a typical supporter. Who knows.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's what we use the championship and the "A" leagues for.

The trouble is that the Rabo is treated as a development league, not a league worth winning in it's own right.
I think you are probably in the minority if you'd prefer to see that, rather than an actual tooth and claws competition.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The story it tells is that the good things about Raboland are that the clubs CAN rest players (in a brutal sport) and therefore involve more local players and provide greater variety of entertainment for the supporters and TV viewers over the course of the season.

Why are the crowds so low, then?
An average of 5166 vs Aviva's 12421 (not including the double header) vs Top 14's 13704 in their respective opening rounds.

 

[coolbawn]

Hmm. Do you actually watch the Rabo matches ?! I imagine not. Did you see the intensity of the matches, the all-out joy of, say, Leinster winning last year and their abject disgust at being pipped by the Ospreys the year before ? Even English and French clubs rest players when they can so are we to believe that those championships are not "tooth and claws competitions" ?!

The difference is that your clubs are now owned by people who insist on maximizing their profit short-term - at the expense of the Rabo league preferably and probably to the detriment of the English playing community. Probably the English national team will suffer soon as the number of English players falls.

Raboland has developed a formula that works, is getting more and more popular (attendances, TV audiences and online viewing/hits) and is helping the Irish do well at provincial level and the Welsh and Italians at national level. Destroy that and you won't have much meaningful rugby to watch outside your league and if your clubs don't have the incentive of a proper Euro league to qualify for, what then ?

It's complex and I'm sure I'm contradicting myself somewhere so I'll shut up now and get back to work.

 

[nickdnz]

That's the point ! The story it tells is that the good things about Raboland are that the clubs CAN rest players (in a brutal sport) and therefore involve more local players and provide greater variety of entertainment for the supporters and TV viewers over the course of the season. I'm not a Wales supporter but if I watch - say - Ospreys v Connacht and Ospreys decide they are strong enough to beat Connacht at home while also giving a start to a demon U20 player, then that adds to the fascination and I'm more likely to switch on the TV and watch that than to watch the same old overseas 29-year-olds hogging the teamsheet places in an Aviva match.

The English and French should use some creative thinking and try to create the same environment instead of jealously trying to break what is working elsewhere.

That's always assume that I'm a typical supporter. Who knows.

Rabo league is very boring I'm sorry. What's good about the Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and Super Rugby is that the leagues are taken seriously by the teams. Teams in the Rabo pretty much take the attitude that "Well, we're still pretty much guarenteed wins in this league and we don't want to harm our chances in the H-Cup, so meh" - which considering the Top 14 plays more games and fields a considerably more competitive team week in and out is just not a fair attitude.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Destroy that and you won't have much meaningful rugby to watch outside your league and if your clubs don't have the incentive of a proper Euro league to qualify for, what then ?

Winning their domestic competition.

 

[Amiga500]

The trouble is that the Rabo is treated as a development league, not a league worth winning in it's own right.

Really?

In that case I must have only imagined the devastation on the Ulster players faces when beaten last year by Leinster... or Leinster the year before when beaten by the Ospreys...

Or dreamed up the final 15 minutes of Leinster vs. Ulster in the RDS regular season match... or fantasized Munster's assault on Ulster in the last 10 minutes in Ravenhill to get the win or draw way back in Sept...

No sir. Not competitive. Not worth winning.


Some of you folks are so insular it is unreal.

 

[Amiga500]

Why are the crowds so low, then?
An average of 5166 vs Aviva's 12421 (not including the double header) vs Top 14's 13704 in their respective opening rounds.

Hmm, lets see.

Populations:
England: 53 million

France: 65.7 million

Ireland: 6.3 million
Wales: 3.0 million
Scotland: 5.3 million
Total: 14.6 million

Italy*: 60.9 million

*With Italy obviously having very very low market penetration.

[and the Welsh being a pack of tight-fisted yappy bstarts that don't bother supporting their teams in big numbers :lol:]

Winning their domestic competition.

Which they can do right now... but it would seem they are not happy with that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hmm. Do you actually watch the Rabo matches ?! I imagine not. Did you see the intensity of the matches, the all-out joy of, say, Leinster winning last year and their abject disgust at being pipped by the Ospreys the year before ? Even English and French clubs rest players when they can so are we to believe that those championships are not "tooth and claws competitions" ?!

The difference is that your clubs are now owned by people who insist on maximizing their profit short-term - at the expense of the Rabo league preferably and probably to the detriment of the English playing community. Probably the English national team will suffer soon as the number of English players falls.

Raboland has developed a formula that works, is getting more and more popular (attendances, TV audiences and online viewing/hits) and is helping the Irish do well at provincial level and the Welsh and Italians at national level. Destroy that and you won't have much meaningful rugby to watch outside your league and if your clubs don't have the incentive of a proper Euro league to qualify for, what then ?

It's complex and I'm sure I'm contradicting myself somewhere so I'll shut up now and get back to work.

I do, actually.
I often seen mostly empty stadiums, and a hell of a lot of forgettable matches played out by fringe/youth/poor players due to clubs resting their starters for Heineken matches (or due to international rest periods).

 

[coolbawn]

Small populations and/or new rugby culture (Italy and Connacht) and/or wrong facilities explains a lot. Edinburgh is the only club with little excuse (big city, rugby culture but low attendances); it has too big a stadium to generate atmosphere and has maybe (?) been mishandled by the union but 2 years ago they were in the HEC semi-final and they will get it right again. Attendances, TV audiences and online viewing/hits are growing fast. Hopefully Sky Sports will help grow the league from next season.

I'm not saying that Raboland is perfect. There should be fewer (8) places in the HEC and therefore more competition in the league. But if the haves grab even more of the pie (33:33:8:8:8:8), Raboland will die and you won't have your fun European trips, your fun 6-Nations trips to Rome, your stepping stone between club and country (the Anglo-French league will be like the Anglo-Welsh league) and your intense competition for the top 6 places in the Aviva.

So try to find ways of improving your own lot without destroying your Rabo neighbours.

 

[Amiga500]

So try to find ways of improving your own lot without destroying your Rabo neighbours.

Indeed.

If England is a massive rugby market... as it undoubtedly must be since McCafferty says it is... why is the biggest club stadium in England smaller than its equivalent in Ireland? Especially considering Leicester has ~5x the population of Limerick. Surely if the PRL clubs were doing their job right* they would be getting significantly more punters through the gates and such stadia would be significantly bigger.

The current PRL champions Saracens live up to their name alright... whichever stadium they are playing in this week is about as thronged as a desert.

*Oh but wait. That would require the PRL clubs to take a long hard look in the mirror. What they see there might be uncomfortable. Much easier to blame Johnny Foreigner instead.