Heineken Cup 2014 - The Final

[Tony Manx]

Utter nonsense.

HaHaHa.............look at the stats boyo!!!!

Take it you agree with everything else though!!!!!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

HaHaHa.............look at the stats boyo!!!!

Certainly in terms of turnovers/Jackals 4-0 and tackles; they were on par in terms of carries. Overall head to head Steffon won the dual of the no.8s.

But I think the win for Toulon has gone to your head when you say Billy V is a one season wonder; he's only 21.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Big bad Billy was shown up for what he is...............a one season (last season) wonder

Are you joking ? He played pretty well considering he was all on his own most of the time out there, requiring 2 or 3 men too tackle him at once. If he had better support his carries would have looked a lot more impressive.

Farrell showed he is far from world class..

No one said he was, but behind a pack getting no front foot ball what do you expect him to do ? He made some good breaks when trying to make something happen but he can't do everything himself.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Don't make a fool of yourself - it was one game... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're drunk, if not then you are being incredibly naive and/or capricious.

His ineffectiveness today was nothing new... we saw it twice in the pool games against Toulouse.
It's symptomatic of Saracens game - if their defence doesn't get purchase then he is practically their only weapon and it doesn't matter how good you are if the defence knows you are the only threat.

 

[TheSaffycen]

He wasn't that bad !! He did what he was told to do which was carry, no one supported him !! He beat 8 defenders today and made 105 meters, from 21 carries, how is that bad from a 21 year old number 8 ?

 

[goodNumber10]

Farrell showed he is far from world class..

Completely the other way, he played well and showed his class.... that break was magnificent, he played better than wilkinson all things considered, and the missed kicks were right on the edge of his range for accuracy imho.

Big bad Billy was shown up for what he is...............a one season (last season) wonder.

wha... a, what?

one quiet-ish game, and it's all comparative, behind a front five that was struggling for parity and you reckon he's a one hit wonder?

Bosch proved to be the same as always.........a poor choice!

Again, disagree, he really had nothing to work with and only came into the game when Sarries were chasing.

TOULON won and will win again next week!!!!

Sarries will win next week.

hope that is not too over the top and that some of the posters on here have a little more respect for the class and togetherness of this wonderful team!!

It is a bit, the budget showed when you have Ali Williams coming off the bench to replace Botha..... well it's a different game isn't it really?

 

[ratsapprentice]

He wasn't that bad !! He did what he was told to do which was carry, no one supported him !! He beat 8 defenders today and made 105 meters, from 21 carries, how is that bad from a 21 year old number 8 ?

I was replying to Tony, not you.

 

[Tony Manx]

......I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're drunk, .

...............a little!!!

 

[TheSaffycen]

I was replying to Tony, not you.

I know, but it was the ineffectiveness comment what made me turn into Billy's mother.

Anyway Saracens /10's (I enjoy doing them so screw you all !!!!!!)
1.Vunipola 6.5/10 didn't get mullered in the scrum and carried okay, made 8 tackles
2.Brits 7/10 did play very well, got smashed once, great pass to ashton in the first half
3.Stevens 4/10 started well in the scrum then started giving away penalties, not at all unhappy to see him leave
4.Borthwick 6.5-7/10 made 10 tackles and 8 lineout takes didn't really do anything wrong
5.Hargreaves 5.5/10 hasn't been as good since coming back from injury which is understandable
6.Brown 7/10 made 14 tackles took a couple of lineouts, brilliant leader
7.Burger 5.5/10 not the man who made Clermont **** themselves, Toulon were just too physical
8.Vunipola 7/10 made 105 meters and beat 8 men but got isolated, whether it's his fault or team ?
9.Wigglesworth 4/10 got charged down and didn't give the backs quick ball
10.Farrell 7.5/10 tried all on his own, made breaks and didn't miss any easy kicks
11.Strettle 4/10 had no real chance, could have been Savea today and wouldn't have mattered
12.Barritt 5/10 won a turnover but then didn't move the ball and just wasn't good enough today
13.Bosch 5/10 never got too see the ball so didn't have a impact on the ball
14.Ashton 5.5/10 always looking for work but no real chance to score
15.Goode 5/10 stupid play at the end of the first half and didn't do anything else

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ineffective in that Sarries did not do anything from his carries.

 

[Aristodemus]

I thought Vunipola was one of the best things about Sarries today, he was isolated far too often though and him not being supported isn't his fault. Toulon showed themselves to be a much better team though, so congratulations to the combined SA, Aus and Eng side Well deserved victory.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Toulon showed themselves to be a much better team though, so congratulations to the combined SA, Aus and Eng side Well deserved victory.

That's very unfair on them.......Hayman's a Kiwi

 

[Big Ewis]

Any of you can take a picture of your TV? My streaming has a poor quality

haha too late now I guess...

My opinion of Toulon is starting to change to be honest, hearing the players talk about the club it does seem there is more substance to it than money. Well done Toulon.

that's because you're neither a Leinster nor Munster fan but still, props to you for seeing that.

Well done Toulon, brutal game, and great to see Wilkinson win.

He's not bad....for an Englishman

lol, that he isn't !!...

Also... I'm not entirely surprised by the dive from Habana - he does it a lot.

yes he does. He did the craziest dive against France last November on a Domingo tackle, it was unbelievable. I swear it took great skill to maneuver such a play. About tonight though, there's nothing much to say about that. He had clear path but Farrell stuck his arm out. No business sticking your arm out while stationary, period, nothing to add. Yes he dove like a maniac, but he sold a foul that really was committed, fair enough. It's concocting a foul that's despicable.

That's very unfair on them.......Hayman's a Kiwi

and Bernard Laporte, **Mignoni and **Delmas (the coaching staff), all French

I'll add my own comment later.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't know if Armitage would be that great on the International stage, it's normally pretty 50/50 if he is on his feet when he gets over the ball and the SH refs don't really like a contest at the breakdown.

That is a grossly unfair remark. The overall tackle/ruck turnover rate in Super Rugby is as high as it is in any other elite competititon.

What SH referees will generally not allow fetchers/jacklers to do is to support heir bodyweight while going for the ball. This is because the LAWS say that players have to be on their feet, and the directives to referees from the iRB and their respective Unions is that "a player is off his feet when he is using his arms or another player to support his weight."

The following techniques are illegal and if seen, will get you penalised by most SH referees;

1. placing the hands on the ground beyond the ball and "sweeping" backward to grab the ball
2. placing forearms and/or elbows on the ground beyond the ball
3. leaning the knees/chins/lower legs on a team-mate or opponent.

In all of these cases, the jackler is deemed to be "off his feet".

In general terms, if the jackler's backside is in front of his heels, then he cannot be supporting his own bodyweight on his feet unless his feet are very wide apart. If you don't believe me, try this at home.... stand with your back to a wall, and with a ball on the ground about 18" in front of you. Place your feet shoulder-width apart, with your heels and backside hard against the wall and try to pick up the ball without toppling forward. You wont be able to, but now widen your stance and try again. Keep widening and keep trying. See how far apart your feet have to be before you can pick up the ball.

I.e. Chris Pollock in the 1st Lions test.

You'll be talking about when he kept penalising Brian O'Driscoll. Well quite simply, O'Driscoll often used technique No. 2 above, its illegal.

O'Driscoll also had a habit of taking the ball carrier to ground and ending up standing already in the gate, which is fine and a great skill if you are good enough to do it, but then he would fail to release the tackled player before gong for the ball, which is also illegal.

 

[jcahill1]

Vunipola had a great game, clearly. Any other forward who made 100 metres in a match would be getting rave reviews.

 

[Big Ewis]

what is there to say that hasn't been said (or needs to be repeated as emphasis):
- the French pundit said it again tonight. What are England doing not picking Stef. Arm. ?? WHAT - are they doing ?!...Armitage+Robshaw+Vunipola (no, not Delon and Mako).
- Drew Mitchell was awesome. He tackles better than ppl think. Took Billy V down all by himself at a point.
- Giteau's try, beautiful. His little bridge-kick was amazing vista, chasing, clean running and positioning, getting it back and down for 5 points.
- Chiocci still is a question mark in the scrum. He definitely needs to work on his technique, but he's got good potential. He's got very good penetration on some, but bends and looks too soft in others...but he is an asset in the loose. I think losing a bit of tummy and hitting the gym a tad more, with age for a prop, and he can attain world class at LH.
- Hayman was disappointing today.
- Bruni what a fkng idiot. That guy likes to show off. He wanted to score that one at the end all by himself. The try was "made", he just had to offload...
- Habana tripping on that second sure-try situation was weird...never got to see the replay. I REALLY wanted the third try. 23 is such an ugly number...30 would've been nice and round.
- Saracens can consider this season a big success. I don't care that they didn't win this one, they made their first final ever, beat THE FKKKKKK out of Clermont earlier, and really gave Toulon one rough war tonight despite the one-sided score. Huge props to the Saracens. I hope they win the Premiership.
- B.Vunipola was indeed shown up today. He lost a ton of balls, and his carrying is monstrous but Toulon defended him brilliantly and he did show some limits tonight.

Finally, Jonny's the man, but he looked genuinely preoccupied towards the end Even after the final whistle. I think he's very anxious for next week, not to bring up the whole Top 14 vs H Cup topic again, or mean any disrespect to the Saracens, but Castres did beat Toulon convincingly last year in exactly that Top 14 final setting. They have a complex vis à vis Castres. And the H Cup repeat was a noble feat, but Wilko still has an empty shelf in his living room (and in his heart :closedeyes...the one for a Top 14 trophy.
Make way......FOR.....THE 2014 TOP 14 FINAL !! *death metal riff at full blast*

 

[Peat]

2.Burden 7/10 one silly hit which could have been carded, brilliant around the park and at lineout big hitter

Is sir referring to the ruck clearance? Those are virtually never carded, to the point where I feel a card would have been a big mistake.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Is sir referring to the ruck clearance? Those are virtually never carded, to the point where I feel a card would have been a big mistake.

But it was still a stupid thing to do, If I was the ref I would have yellowed him for a shoulder charge to a player not contesting the ball. But he wasn't carded and that's that.

- B.Vunipola was indeed shown up today. He lost a ton of balls, and his carrying is monstrous but Toulon defended him brilliantly and he did show some limits tonight.

I'll just repeat what I have said before, he wasn't shown up he had no support from the rest of the team. He made 105 meters and beat 8 defenders, which is pretty good against the likes of Smith, Lobbe, Rossouw and Armitage. They did defend him brilliantly and Armitage got over him almost every time but you can't blame Vunipola when he has 3 guys on him and no one supporting him, if Vunipola was in the Toulon team with Smith and Armitage he would have looked monstrous but Burger and Brown weren't up to scratch yesterday.

the French pundit said it again tonight. What are England doing not picking Stef. Arm. ?? WHAT - are they doing ?!...Armitage+Robshaw+Vunipola (no, not Delon and Mako).

Talent wise he could walk into the team, but you can't start picking guys from abroad otherwise everyone will leave for France and Japan. In fairness we need to take a look at Kvesic and Fraser(shame Sarrries didn't play him) because they are could be great at intl' level, Armitage made his choice to re-sign with Toulon and he knew the rules.

 

[goodNumber10]

They did defend him brilliantly and Armitage got over him almost every time but you can't blame Vunipola when he has 3 guys on him and no one supporting him,

To be fair, he should have taken Armitage out of the equation early on... it was inexperience, coupled with lack of support, that allowed himself to get continually turned over.

if Vunipola was in the Toulon team with Smith and Armitage he would have looked monstrous but Burger and Brown weren't up to scratch yesterday.

it's difficult to do anything when you're playing off a retreating front 5.

Talent wise he could walk into the team, but you can't start picking guys from abroad otherwise everyone will leave for France and Japan. In fairness we need to take a look at Kvesic and Fraser(shame Sarrries didn't play him) because they are could be great at intl' level, Armitage made his choice to re-sign with Toulon and he knew the rules.

he won't make the England team, he is not a guy who can play to plan, he has to roam free, he won't fit into the England structures.

 

[Tony Manx]

I'll just repeat what I have said before, he wasn't shown up he had no support from the rest of the team. He made 105 meters and beat 8 defenders, which is pretty good against the likes of Smith, Lobbe, Rossouw and Armitage. .

Love to know where your stats came from for the 8 defenders beaten but would concede that he could well have carried for 105 metres....mostly when he was retrieving a long kick from Toulon on his 22 and running full tilt at the Toulon defence only to come to a shuddering halt. Stats like that to be meaningful should be carries such as those of Brown the Quins 15 who carries but makes much ground against the defence not just getting to it!

Maybe he will not be a "one season wonder" and turn into a Dean Richards or Dallaglio one day but he has not looked the same player this season after his injury and he is playing with arguably the best team in England so he should be doing better than he is....in my humble and sober opinion.