Heineken Cup 1/4F - Ulster v Saracens

[goodNumber10]

you have to look at the incident on it's merits before injuries are taken into consideration.

Yes, and the incident merited a straight red card for putting another player in extreme danger.

 

[ruggabee]

I can understand why the red card was given because rules are rules but they don't make sense. Why is it that the player jumping has no responsibility for his or the other player's welfare? The jumping player is allowed to compete for the ball with only the ball in mind while disregarding the players around him by leading with the knee and the boots are also a danger too as shown in the video I posted before. Watch the Payne/Goode incident again and you can see that the moment that Goode jumps it is way too late for Payne to stop or move out of the way. Even if he jumped to avoid running through he would have been late leaving the ground and Goode would still have flipped. Would Payne still get a red even though he attempted to jump? The only action that puts him in the wrong is that he didn't jump. If the IRB really wants to secure safety for the players then as Mr Fish said, eliminate jumping for the ball, because whether or not this rule is in place, collisions like these are part of rugby as you can't predict if a player will jump or not. However, I personally find the aerial battle a good one to watch and take part in as a player so wouldn't like it to be taken out of the game. AFAIK it is not compulsory to jump if you want to compete for the ball and I think this is the root of the problem with players flipping head over heels or players getting a face full of knees. I'd propose that if you really want to eliminate this sort of accidental "tackle" then instead of putting responsibility on the player who doesn't jump they should enforce a rule that if you're going to compete for the ball both parties must jump.

 

[collace]

I'm sorry but to simply say look at the picture does Payne a serious disservice. Of course in that picture he is looking at Goode because the ball has just arrived in Goode's hands. If you look at the video as a whole I think it's pretty clear that Payne's eyes never once leave the ball.

Listen, I'm not saying that Payne is the innocent party in all this. It's clear that he made a misjudgement, perhaps over the timing of the run and jump - it was extrememly clumsy and certainly merited a yellow card. In my opinion, it wasn't a red and I honestly believe if Goode has gotten up the ref wouldn't have given a red.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If he has been paralysed it would have been tragic (and I really don't want to be seen to be dimishing the potential injury on Goode) but you still can't dish out punishment based on the extent of the injury. If that happens you run into a scenario where that same incident in two different games results in two different punishments purely because one happened to fall in a more awkward position and hurt himself. You can't ref a game like that - you have to look at the incident on it's merits before injuries are taken into consideration.

After watching it again I think it was a red. At the time I said probably yellow but at a second time of watching I realised how ****ing reckless Payne was, if you are second to the ball then you have to accept that, Goode has got there miles before Payne but Payne keeps running through Goode. It's not even close as Goode leaves the ground and catches the ball Payne doesn't need to keep going, I've seen in the past a player jump very late and the player manages to stop himself and tackle the player when their feet hit the ground. The only reason people are talking about this not being a red is because Ulster are upset they lost at home and by only 2 points to sarries who had a man more. Ulster fans want too look at the ref to the reason they lost the game, but it isn't !! Jared Payne is the reason you lost the game, no one else, not the ref who followed the letter of the law and it ain't Goode for jumping in the air to catch the high ball. Yes you were unlucky in the sense that you had a ref with a backbone and not someone like Barnes who would have ****** himself and said yellow. I don't think Garces is a particularly good referee but I give him credit too give the correct call against the home team knowing that he would get grief the whole game and have ravenhill shouting at everything they thought wasn't right. He didn't once mention the injury when talking to payne, from what I heard, he just kept saying the player was tackled in the air. I could complain how we didn't have our best full back the rest of the game who is very important to our gameplan, or the fact that Taylor went off injured early on so our backline was 10.Farrell 12.Hodgson 13.Barritt so we didn't have any punch to get past your backline(who defended bloody well). Both teams had injuries, Best and Pienaar are unlucky, Payne was not unlucky he was ****ing lucky that Goode got up afterwards

EDIT watching again on youtube Garces does say Goode's head comes into contact with the ground, either saying that he's flip the player in the air or taking into account the injury

 

[collace]

You've quoted me. I'm pretty sure I haven't claimed that Payne was unlucky, I've conceeded that it was extremely clumsy by Payne and deserved punishment. I'm simply stating that I don't think it was a red.

I wasn't at the game (couldn't get a ticket!) where sometimes emotions can get caught up but I would like to think that, watching on my tv, if it had been Goode on Payne my initial reaction would have been the same - a yellow card offence.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

[goodNumber10]

Of course in that picture he is looking at Goode because the ball has just arrived in Goode's hands.

I rest my case, Goode already had the ball when Payne makes contact with him...

If you look at the video as a whole I think it's pretty clear that Payne's eyes never once leave the ball.

Except when he takes them down to look at Goode and put his arms up to save himself and flip Goode.

Listen, I'm not saying that Payne is the innocent party in all this. It's clear that he made a misjudgement, perhaps over the timing of the run and jump - it was extrememly clumsy and certainly merited a yellow card. In my opinion, it wasn't a red and I honestly believe if Goode has gotten up the ref wouldn't have given a red.

aye, right.

 

[goodNumber10]

I can understand why the red card was given because rules are rules but they don't make sense. Why is it that the player jumping has no responsibility for his or the other player's welfare? The jumping player is allowed to compete for the ball with only the ball in mind while disregarding the players around him by leading with the knee and the boots are also a danger too as shown in the video I posted before. Watch the Payne/Goode incident again and you can see that the moment that Goode jumps it is way too late for Payne to stop or move out of the way. Even if he jumped to avoid running through he would have been late leaving the ground and Goode would still have flipped. Would Payne still get a red even though he attempted to jump? The only action that puts him in the wrong is that he didn't jump. If the IRB really wants to secure safety for the players then as Mr Fish said, eliminate jumping for the ball, because whether or not this rule is in place, collisions like these are part of rugby as you can't predict if a player will jump or not. However, I personally find the aerial battle a good one to watch and take part in as a player so wouldn't like it to be taken out of the game. AFAIK it is not compulsory to jump if you want to compete for the ball and I think this is the root of the problem with players flipping head over heels or players getting a face full of knees. I'd propose that if you really want to eliminate this sort of accidental "tackle" then instead of putting responsibility on the player who doesn't jump they should enforce a rule that if you're going to compete for the ball both parties must jump.

*Sigh*

It wasn't a tackle, because you cannot tackle the man in the air - it is a dangerous challenge.

If Payne had jumped and genuinley competed for the ball he would have been fine - if he had jumped late and flipped Goode he would have been done for a dangerous challenge.

Payne has all the options as he is on the ground and in full control, Goode has none as he is in the air, he is reliant on and is putting his faith in the opposition player doing the right thing - Payne repays him by poleaxing him into the turf on his head.


I really don't understand these points - either it's dangerous and is penalised or we just let anything go - shall we allow the jumper int eh lineout to be pulled down? Can you drive throught eh Jumpers legs because, you know HE jumped out of choice?

 

[William18]

What if Goode knocked Payne out by jumping for the ball and landing awkwardly on Payne? Would Goode then be deserved of a red card?

 

[TheSaffycen]

You've quoted me. I'm pretty sure I haven't claimed that Payne was unlucky, I've conceeded that it was extremely clumsy by Payne and deserved punishment. I'm simply stating that I don't think it was a red.

It was just to show I was talking to you but I forgot to put an space to the next paragraph just saying about payne being unlucky, I stop talking about your post just after Goode jumping in the air to catch the high ball. From then on i'm talking about different post I have read.

 

[goodNumber10]

Payne was not unlucky he was ****ing lucky that Goode got up afterwards

very much this...

 

[goodNumber10]

What if Goode knocked Payne out by jumping for the ball and landing awkwardly on Payne? Would Goode then be deserved of a red card?

If Payne ran into the contact area then no. Payne is in control of the situation, he has all the cards, Goode has no options but to see through the jump.

Payne didn't compete for the ball, didn't bring the man to ground he missed the ball and put a player at serious risk - if you want to make light of it fine but it's pretty poor show.

 

[TheSaffycen]

What if Goode knocked Payne out by jumping for the ball and landing awkwardly on Payne? Would Goode then be deserved of a red card?

No because Goode is making a genuine attempt for the ball, it isn't a difficult point here, Payne has played the game for many years and someone kicked the ball up in the air and 9/10 times the opposition will go for the ball, he knew that the ball would be contested but instead of looking at what was around him he runs into goode flipping him upside down.

 

[ruggabee]

*Sigh*

It wasn't a tackle, because you cannot tackle the man int eh air - it is a dangerous challenge.

If Payne had jumped and genuinley competed for the ball he would have been fine - if he had jumped late and flipped Goode he would have been done for a dangerous challenge.

Payne has all the options as he is on the ground and in full control, Goode has none as he is in the air, he is reliant on and is putting his faith in the opposition player doing the right thing - Payne repays him by poleaxing him into the turf on his head.


I really don't understand these points - either it's dangerous and is penalised or we just let anything go - shall we allow the jumper int eh lineout to be pulled down? Can you drive throught eh Jumpers legs because, you know HE jumped out of choice?

You must have amazing stopping capabilities in your legs if you think Payne could stop there. His eyes were always on the ball and he wasn't going to jump to catch it. He managed to get a glimpse of Goode in the last second. How is he supposed to stop? That's why I proposed that if the IRB wanted to eliminate any unfortunate collisions like this one then they should enforce a rule that to compete you must jump. Situations like these are going to keep happening due to human error ie. Misjudgement of distance, different mode of how they want to compete for the ball.

 

[TheSaffycen]

That's why I proposed that if the IRB wanted to eliminate any unfortunate collisions like this one then they should enforce a rule that to compete you must jump. Situations like these are going to keep happening due to human error ie. Misjudgement of distance, different mode of how they want to compete for the ball.

So would no-one be allowed too jump in the air ? Like Lineouts for instance ? Or when receiving kick off can you not lift a player ? Genuine questions, what if someone is too short and the ball is kicked flat above their head can they jump up to grab the ball ?

 

[ruggabee]

So would no-one be allowed too jump in the air ? Like Lineouts for instance ? Or when receiving kick off can you not lift a player ? Genuine questions, what if someone is too short and the ball is kicked flat above their head can they jump up to grab the ball ?

I said to enforce a rule that they must jump so competition for the ball is consistent and we still get to see an aerial battle.

 

[goodNumber10]

You must have amazing stopping capabilities in your legs if you think Payne could stop there. His eyes were always on the ball and he wasn't going to jump to catch it. He managed to get a glimpse of Goode in the last second. How is he supposed to stop? That's why I proposed that if the IRB wanted to eliminate any unfortunate collisions like this one then they should enforce a rule that to compete you must jump. Situations like these are going to keep happening due to human error ie. Misjudgement of distance, different mode of how they want to compete for the ball.

When you chase a ball you do not just run with your head up in the air looking only at the ball, you glance up look back, glance up look back - at this level you would be absoloutely sure/aware of what is going on around you - Payne even deviates around another player on his way to the catch zone, it is absolutely his responsibility to know where he is and what is occuring around him.

The simple fact of it is Payne isn't anywhere near the ball, he isn't in the air to catch it, nor has he timed it right for it's descent for a ground catch - it's a poor effort and he puts another player at serious risk with his own negligence.

Spin it how you want but he is either at fault or he isn't - the law says Red as due to his challenge the player goes through the horizontal and his head makes contact with the ground - if it was a genuine tackle it would have been a red as well - so you're saying he's either innocent of all wrong doing which clearly he isn't, or it HAS to be a red.

so which is it?

Making it out to be Goodes or the Laws fault fault is utter madness i tell you.... MADNESS!

 

[goodNumber10]

I tell you something else, Payne shows absolutely zero remorse when it happens, he makes no attempt to check on Goode he just gets up and starts going "what? what? I had my hands in the air, it's fine", even after the jostling he's just screwing his face up and going "ah, it's nothing".

Everyone is going mental, even his own players are all concernred for Goode, and his just waving his arms in the air in an attempt to justify his challenge.

 

[Feicarsinn]

A lot of what the no red card side is saying seems to depend, either directly or indirectly, on the fact that Payne had his eyes on the ball. There would appear to be a line of thinking going that since he had his eyes on the ball he's making a fair attempt to play the ball and for that a red card cannot be given.

Now I disagree with this. Saying you have your eyes on the ball isn't a legitimate excuse for breaking the rules. I'd parallel it with the O'Connell kick to Dave Kearney's head last season. Did he have his eyes on the ball? Yes. Does that mean that it's okay that he kicked a player in a vulnerable position in the head? Absolutely not. Similarly, just because Payne had his eyes on the ball does not mean that it's okay for him to take Goode out in the air like that.

Look, there's no mention of intent in the rule book. The referee cannot concern himself with what Payne meant to do, only with what he did. And what he did was endanger Goode with a wreckless challenge. Red card for me every day of the week, regardless of what happened to Goode afterward.

 

[collace]

I tell you something else, Payne shows absolutely zero remorse when it happens, he makes no attempt to check on Goode he just gets up and starts going "what? what? I had my hands in the air, it's fine", even after the jostling he's just screwing his face up and going "ah, it's nothing".

Everyone is going mental, even his own players are all concernred for Goode, and his just waving his arms in the air in an attempt to justify his challenge.

I'm pretty sure the Sky commentators said that he was straight over to him once he came back out to apologise and make sure he was ok.

To be fair, on the pitch the Sarries guys were jostling him (which is completly understandable) and by the time that was over Goode was surrounded by medical personnel - I'm not sure I would have interjected myself into the middle of that.

I'm sure when Payne looks back on the whole thing in the cold light of day he will be disappointed with that challenge and feel he let his team down. I'm not convinced it was a red but he left himself open to it.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm pretty sure the Sky commentators said that he was straight over to him once he came back out to apologise and make sure he was ok.

To be fair, on the pitch the Sarries guys were jostling him (which is completly understandable) and by the time that was over Goode was surrounded by medical personnel - I'm not sure I would have interjected myself into the middle of that.

I'm sure when Payne looks back on the whole thing in the cold light of day he will be disappointed with that challenge and feel he let his team down. I'm not convinced it was a red but he left himself open to it.

Meh, it's a bit late 15-20 minutes after the fact. The Sarries players gave him a shove but it was all over bar the shouting about 2 seconds later... he was was waving his hands at them and saying "what, what?"

I'm not convinced it was a red

Out of curiosity, what WOULD have made it Red in your eyes?