Habana - It's Rugby League (ELV's)

[Prestwick]

You cant carry it back into the 22, cant pass it to someone in the 22 is when you cannot kick out on the full. I'm pretty sure. [/b]

Okay then, thanks for the clarification.

I quite like the idea of discouraging kicking from the 22. Maybe it might by chance reduce those crazy tries gained from charge downs because the full back is too lazy to run the ball.

Still though, there are still important potential faults here with these ELVs. Just because some penalty kickable offenses have been reduced to mere free kicks, doesn't mean we're going to get amazing see-saw matches. Throwing the ball around and running allot doesn't always equate to thrilling pulsating rugby. Look at Wales between 2000 and 2005 for example, loads of lateral passing and running laterally up and down didn't bode well for an amazing rugby match.

If anything, if the threat of a penalty kick has been removed, it will encourage sides to infringe on a regular basis to slow the ball down. Free kick, dodge one tackle, brought to ground, defending team slows the ball down, free kick, repeat process. Simon Easterby is going to have a field day with this.

I read Mick Cleary's column yesterday and I have a friend, similar to his, who loves both Union and League. He usually downloads matches from both codes to catch up because of his shift work.

Essentially, his worst nightmare in both codes is stalemate. He'll be watching a Union game and a League game on his PC. He'll see the two teams in the Union game start to pack down for the scrum so he'll switch windows to the League game only to sigh in exasperation as the League teams muddle through six tackles which gain about two yards before bowing to the inevitable and kicking the ball away, then he'll turn back to Union and see them just finish the scrum, only to have it reset again. Two totally different situations, same result. Stalemate.

The fact is that there will be games which will be crap and making the game look more like Rugby League isn't going to change that. The only way you're going to have more open and free flowing games is to start making it harder for defenses to do their job, force teams to only have one man make a tackle, force teams to stand defending players with a gap of at least five meters between each other, etc.

I'm not saying that the ELVs will be crap, but lets not kid outselves and say that these rules will be the panacea for solving all our problems. De-powering the scrum and de-valuing the penalty kick are the wrong avenues to go down. In my opinion, it seems that we're desperately trying to appease the Rugby authorities in Australia at the expense of the rest of the world.

EDIT: actually, here is a bright idea. Why can't the iRB use some of its developmental cash to fund scrum coaches to go to Australia and teach them how to bloody scrum properly?

Further EDIT: I say the above about Australia and scrums because you have South Africa and New Zealand who have both put the time, money and effort into developing absolutely world class packs who can scrum meaner than a ******* child of Argentina and Italy on speed and they get dragged down by such a rubbish and negative Australian scrum which is based mostly on smoke and mirrors and subtefuge which means it creaks and groans against even Japan for christ-sakes! Its just not fair on basically the rest of the bloody world who make the effort only to have to change because Australia can't hack it.

 

[sambãd5]

:lol:



it is true, when a scrum cant hack it, they bring it down. it slows the game down so much, and its such a vital part of union. i would go as far as saying, if it wasnt for the scrum, union will demise down to nothing, some teams have simply suffered too long under bad scrums, and to see stricter reffereeing on scrums, and some way to make it more beinifical for the defending team to hold the scrum up when being pushed back, turned or massicared in general rather than collapsing it would speed the game up considerably.



some refferees have got it. they swap sides, and look at each props technique. they move scrums off muddy patches, but nothing is more fustrating than watching your team (like the all blacks in the wc) get bullied off the feild for being GOOD as scrumming. refferees need to learn about the scrum.

 

[BLR]

Prestwick, first of all, what does Australian scrummaging have to do with ANYTHING to do with the ELV's?

Secondly you will find the laws have also been met with very good reactions in New Zealand and most of South Africa, and were developed in South Africa so don't even think that it is some Australian run conspiracy...

Now to everyone whinging about the ELV's I will stress it is EXPERIMENTAL....so how about leaving the going on and on about it until after the Super 14 and Tri nations and then judging it, hell, alot of the changes may not even see the light of day in permanent rules...

 

[Prestwick]

BLR, as I stressed, I'm not saying the ELVs are crap, just saying that they're not the amazing solve everything solution some people are making them out to be.

And I mention Australia's scrum because gradually, bit by bit, the scrum is being made deliberately irrelevant. Some of the more radical parts of the ELVs (which, I believe, aren't being used...yet) call for free kicks for infringements which would normally be punished with a scrum.

Also, I bring it up because I love the equal amount of smoke & mirrors Aussie fans employ to dodge the question of scrums.

 

[BLR]

I think you will find the ELV's allow more scrums, for example, a game Australia v England with the new laws and infringement will be made which woudl usually be a penalty but instead it's a free kick, instead of running it the English decide to pack a scrum...this can be done over and over again until the opposition has been driven into the ground....if anything it adds a whole new set of tactics to the game....

People get carried away....I hate the media over here as much as anyone but thats all it is, hype....I mean, I support the Force and before that the Spirit under these new laws, and never saw this free flowing rugby, only alot of frustrating kicking...but at least there was the option to mix it up...

 

[mimic]

Killing the ball would count as foul play wouldn't it?
Or if it's close to the try-line, it's a professional foul.

I like the new rules so far.

I even like the rule where teams can't kick out from the 22.. Sure there's aimless kicking, but good teams will take advantage of teams kicking possession away..

Maybe you should read this Prestwick



http://www.sareferees.co.za/referees_news/...21208091745.php

Effect of ELVs 2008-02-21 09:15:48
André Watson, SARU’s Manager of Referees, has a look at some statistics regarding the Experimental Law Variations and comments on them. His comments follow much that has been said about the ELVs.

Watson says: “We believe that it is too early to respond negatively or positively on whether the ELVs are good or bad for the game. We remind all that the ELVs are being trialled comprehensively and the trial needs to run its course so as to provide a balanced picture before conclusions can be drawn.

"Some quarters hail the ELVs as very good and positive whilst others are slamming it as too close to rugby league and that forwards (Read below for scrums, line-outs, mauls and rucking) are being taken out of the game. In order to make an assessment of the impact of the ELVs, one needs to look at statistics."

Watson has produced some figures comparing Round 1 of the 2007 Super 14 with Round 1 of the 2008 Super 14, which is a fair comparison. In 2007 the "old laws" were used, in 2008 the curtailed ELVs.

Scrums

2007: 169
2008: 170
Difference: nil
Comment: Same number of scrums as last year

Line-outs

2007: 217
2008: 175
Difference: Down 19%
Comment: Teams don't go for touch on free kicks and they are not allowed to gain ground for kick in touch once the ball is carried over into the 22m area.

Ruck/mauls

2007: 959
2008: 994
Difference: Up by 4%
Comment: Which means there are more tackles and rucks involving the forwards even more

Penalty kicks/free kicks

2007: 148
2008: 197
Difference: Up 33%
Comment: Because of free kicks awarded in lieu of penalty kicks which results in more tap kicks and play. Also some scrums are now free kicks.

Ball in play time

2007: 31 minutes 38 seconds
2008: 35 minutes 56 seconds
Difference: Up by 14%
Comment: More action and ball-in-hand play

Watson said: “When one looks at the cold stats, it actually shows that the forwards are as much in the game in scrums, more at ruck/maul, and a little less in line-outs.

“As mentioned earlier, the jury is still out, but let’s allow this to be trialled comprehensively before accepting or condemning.â€

 

[peppers07]

the one elv rule i really hate is reducing killing the ball on the ground to a free kick this will encoiurage it

 

[ainsy]

yeah if your already in your 22, you can still kick it out on the full, but it cant be passed back into your 22. ie, scrum half in on around 30m, cant throw the ball back all the way to the 5/8 inside the 22.


peppers and ainsy - both wrong. if you continious offences happen around the ruck, there will be a penalty. alot of penaltys come from entering from the sides of rucks, and pulling players in. both are still illegal play. points imo should stay the same. its simple. if penaltys are lowered, theres more insentive to commit a penalty. instead of being, 3 points, its only 2. how can you convince me that a unconverted try and a penalty should be worth less or the same as a converted try - remembering that your supporting the offender, rather than the victims. drop goals are done with skill. the only argument i can accept is if a drop goal right in frount inside the 22 is worth 2, but one 40m out is worth 3 etc.

the new laws should only be judged however, after a season of international play, rather than 1 round of super rugby. [/b]

Look all i'm saying is i'd rather see a 25 - 19 scoreline with 7 tries, than a 25-19 scoreline with 1 try & endless stoppages for penalty goals. C'mon does it really excite you when you see your team lining up to kick a penalty goal. Do you pump your fist when the ball sails over the black dot the same way you would if a try was scored? Do you want a game that encourages and rewards attacking skill.

 

[candybum]

imo elv's in the long run, its not going to benefit the attacking team (unless a scrum) because tactically and strategically, the defenses will catch on to this holding the ball none penalties thing. I feel it wont suit the international game.

But so far like everyone has said before, the kicking around the 22 thing hasn't been good. The game imo doesn't have counterattacking players it once had, so the kicking back and forth, force back type stuff is gay.

I really like the new 5m back at the scrum thing. 2 Awesome tries by the blues.

The free kicking rule, im still undecided if that is a good change. I liked that fact that a few tries has been scored of free kicks. But what happens if there is a close game? resorting to droppies?

 

[Camberabero]

My opinion :

Any infringement of the rules that have key role in the game must be penalized.
There are already right rules, the referees must whistle any time and punish (with YC) to make the players respect it.

I don't want to see tap pens after "hands in ruck" or "tackler not rolled away".
These infringements change the momentum of the game.
I want some boot skills: Penaltyies from 50 meters !

What is the real ELV goal?

More Yellow cards? More broke games?Smaller Props?

The front row players cannot run on the field like this....if they really have to, they have to drink and eat less.

New srum rule is good, 5 m behind give more chance to score.

But i don't think the game must be changed.
Look at Bath v Wasps. That was an amazing game of rugby.
Why should we change it by changing the rules?

This is going to be the third code....Union, League, now Super Rugby (a well mixed codes game) !

 

[Crackdown]

Keep it to your own thread then, how about that? How does this particular topic have anything to do NH rugby?[/b]

Well duh, it's because we might be forced to adopt these crappy rules and according to some down under the NH teams produce the most boring style of rugby on the planet. It's simply not true.

Camberabero - very true as I said earlier, best televised game by a mile was Barf v Pests, followed by Glaws & Bris which should have been on too. Absolute cracking games both under the old laws. Nothing needs to be changed.