Greatest World XV Ever 'Past and Present'

[nickdnz]

Impossible to know the humor of someone with 1 post. Especially if they're Irish. Delusions of grandeur are very common-place.

 

[big ginger 8]

Impossible to know the humor of someone with 1 post. Especially if they're Irish. Delusions of grandeur are very common-place.

They're not delusions.

 

[donmcdazzle]

^ I appreciate a reply, but I mean that's a neat trick, it really is, but I dunno I'm waiting for a big reason to start thinking he's rated just the way he should be/isn't overrated. Again, I understand the commitment on defense and all but I've seen more impressive defense and breakdown action from a number of flankers who can do it quite consistently...surely I'm missing something, or he just IS overrated, bottom line.

EDIT:

like, I can only imagine the crazy childish arguments this must've created between kiwis and Ozzies throughout the years, but what would you say are the main reasons McCaw is a better flanker than Pocock for e.g. ? Not saying I think Pocock's better, but just the main points so I can clearly see whether I've in deed missed smt the whole time, or whether I'm on par with reality.

Because McCaw has been at such a high level for the length of time he has is why he is regarded more highly than Pocock. If Pocock can string together a decade pretty much of being in the best/2nd best in the world at any given time in that decade then he will be considered in the conversation. I agree that it is debatable who you would pick for a one off game (5 different people probably have 5 different players for equally valid reasons), but in terms of greatness then career longevity and accomplishments matter. And McCaw has achieved more than anyone else really. This is why Michael Jones doesn't compare. He was only at his best for about 3 seasons, injuries derailed him. Would you take 3 years of Michael Jones or a decade of McCaw? Those sorts of things matter when it comes to 'greatest of all time'.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ I understand that, and thanks for answering. But then it is what I suspected...so called "achievements", though not insignificant, are basically the result of him being a good flanker, consistent AND - an All-black. It's true, there are much more athletic, physically able flankers out there, with better ability physically, quicker, more efficient timing, or more robust and better at fetching in the rucks and halting a strong possession from the opposite team...
but because McCaw is an All-black, and that he's good and consistent, he benefits from his team winning all the time; because they're by far the best side in the world; and so ppl praise his defense a little more than they should, see more heart in him than there might be, and basically call anything he does a bigger achievement than it really is individually.
I'm not saying every All-Black benefits from that. Carter really IS that good, easily. The easiest pick probably for that Best World XV Ever.

And so the Player of the Year awards pile up, the victories, a RWC now, being captain...etc etc...and it's a 'vicious' circle. He's on absolutely everyone's XV on this thread (and on 95% of forums/youtube...etc...).
I understand his longevity plays a big role, and his consistency and that he's got all the text-book abilities for a flanker; but it looks over-the-top and exaggerated to see his name ABSOLUTELY EVERYWHERE.

And yeah, sorry but Pocock if he could be 100% all the time (healthy) would be on top of McCaw. He snatches that ball like he's playing against playground kids, and let's not forget McCaw gets away with a ****-ton of illegal stuff every single game. Pocock is true ability, nothing "under the table".

 

[donmcdazzle]

Yes he benefits from playing in the ABs, but you're also discounting how hard it is to make the ABs and stay in the team for so long. That in itself is an achievement. We produce so many good players that there is always someone nipping at the heels of the incumbents ready to take their place. You don't just stay in the team for so long by not being a great player. That's where the longevity thing comes into it.

haha Pocock is just as much of a cheat as any other good open side, just ask the saffas on here he is a great fetcher, at his best one of the best I've ever seen sure. But what else does he do? He can't carry with any authority, and when teams take him out of the game by running directly at him all the time he can be ineffective (see the World Cup semi).

 

[psychic duck]

Yes he benefits from playing in the ABs, but you're also discounting how hard it is to make the ABs and stay in the team for so long. That in itself is an achievement. We produce so many good players that there is always someone nipping at the heels of the incumbents ready to take their place. You don't just stay in the team for so long by not being a great player. That's where the longevity thing comes into it.

Indeed. Chris Masoe, Marty Holah and even Daniel Braid could have had long distinguished international careers if they were from a different country. Just look how Masoe has come into the Top 14 and single handedly carried Castres to punch above their weight in recent years.

 

[KAPman]

1: Tendai Mtwarira
2: Sean Fitzpatrick
3: Carl Hayman
4:Colin Meads
5: John Eales
6: Richard Hill
7: Richie McCaw
8: Zinzan Brooke
9: Gareth Edwards
10: Dan Carter
11: Jonah Lomu
12: Tim Horan
13: Brian O'Driscoll
14: David Campese
15: Serge Blanco

Subs: 16: Keith Wood. 17: Jason Leonard. 18: Craig Dowd. 19: Martin Johnson. 20: Michael Jones. 21: Joost Van der Westiuzen. 22: Marc Ella. 23: Christian Cullen

 

[Big Ewis]

Yes he benefits from playing in the ABs, but you're also discounting how hard it is to make the ABs and stay in the team for so long. That in itself is an achievement. We produce so many good players that there is always someone nipping at the heels of the incumbents ready to take their place. You don't just stay in the team for so long by not being a great player. That's where the longevity thing comes into it.

haha Pocock is just as much of a cheat as any other good open side, just ask the saffas on here he is a great fetcher, at his best one of the best I've ever seen sure. But what else does he do? He can't carry with any authority, and when teams take him out of the game by running directly at him all the time he can be ineffective (see the World Cup semi).

Right. I agree. And no Pocock's not near McCaw's level in dirtiness. No bias, just saying.
Of course every All-black is pressured by others for their position, same thing in every major rugby nation...
And you're right about Pocock's limits. While ball carrying isn't McCaw's forte either, Pocock is just almost non-existent in that field it seems...

But still, I'm not convinced about McCaw there....

 

[Tony Manx]

Right. I agree. And no Pocock's not near McCaw's level in dirtiness. No bias, just saying.
Of course every All-black is pressured by others for their position, same thing in every major rugby nation...
And you're right about Pocock's limits. While ball carrying isn't McCaw's forte either, Pocock is just almost non-existent in that field it seems...

But still, I'm not convinced about McCaw there....

As you know Yoe, I hate to disagree with you....always have, always will.........but have seen many, many players who far surpass your perceived "level of dirtiness" of McCaw and also have seen McCaw run and pass the ball better than many centres that Biarritz have so, it may not be a forte, but his carrying is certainly not a weakness!!

There has been no better 7 that I know of who plays to the ultimate, but not surpass the, limit of referees' tolerance at the breakdown....does he break the rules, well I think that unless you want to fail at being an openside, it is inbuilt and all excellent 7's are always on the borderline. His trick is to be able to play the referee and convince them he is actually 99% legal!

 

[donmcdazzle]

Right. I agree. And no Pocock's not near McCaw's level in dirtiness. No bias, just saying.
Of course every All-black is pressured by others for their position, same thing in every major rugby nation...
And you're right about Pocock's limits. While ball carrying isn't McCaw's forte either, Pocock is just almost non-existent in that field it seems...

But still, I'm not convinced about McCaw there....

I just think we produce more top players than any other nation and there is more competition for the team as a result. We export a heap of players. Look how long it took for someone to play 100 tests for us (which happened to be done first by McCaw).

 

[big ginger 8]

Right. I agree. And no Pocock's not near McCaw's level in dirtiness. No bias, just saying.
Of course every All-black is pressured by others for their position, same thing in every major rugby nation...
And you're right about Pocock's limits. While ball carrying isn't McCaw's forte either, Pocock is just almost non-existent in that field it seems...

But still, I'm not convinced about McCaw there....

Pocoks a pretty powerful carrier...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/imUV3xbvdqk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[donmcdazzle]

^that must drive the saffas crazy, just some appalling reffereeing in that semi final. No he really isn't a consistent threat with ball in hand at all.

 

[nickdnz]

I think the problem with all this is - people are comparing Pocock who is at his athletic prime - up against a guy turning 33 this year. I tend to agree there have been better jackels this year and over the last four seasons (I acutally rate Brussow over both McCaw and Pocock). Back when McCaw was 22, 23, 24 etc, he was just as impressive if not more so than Pocock. He would win some insane ball. I'd say he stopped being as good as he used to be in that department in 2009. What he has gained however is probably a better all round game. There are still better running 7's than him, but its not a weak area of his - and he combines it with good tackling and good jackling.

Arguably the factor that makes him the best is the fact that he captains the team well. Richie McCaw leads the most successful team - he makes good decisions and knows exactly how to talk to referees. It's these attributes that make him great. Now, yes Pocock is a better jackler - hes not had 12 years of professional rugby while being the most consistent target of dirty tactics. With that said he still hasn't shown hes got the same leadership or all round game as McCaw in my opinion.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think the problem with all this is - people are comparing Pocock who is at his athletic prime - up against a guy turning 33 this year. I tend to agree there have been better jackels this year and over the last four seasons (I acutally rate Brussow over both McCaw and Pocock). Back when McCaw was 22, 23, 24 etc, he was just as impressive if not more so than Pocock. He would win some insane ball. I'd say he stopped being as good as he used to be in that department in 2009. What he has gained however is probably a better all round game. There are still better running 7's than him, but its not a weak area of his - and he combines it with good tackling and good jackling.

Arguably the factor that makes him the best is the fact that he captains the team well. Richie McCaw leads the most successful team - he makes good decisions and knows exactly how to talk to referees. It's these attributes that make him great. Now, yes Pocock is a better jackler - hes not had 12 years of professional rugby while being the most consistent target of dirty tactics. With that said he still hasn't shown hes got the same leadership or all round game as McCaw in my opinion.

Brussow doesn't seem to know the rules. He gets in over the ball at each and every ruck, but doesn't seem to care if it's illegal or not. Refs are being intolerant of not releasing the tackled player before going for the steal, and for whatever reason Brussow has not changed his game to suit this.

 

[lynam1104]

I think Pocock is the best open side flanker but McCaw is the best flanker, he seems to have a more rounded set of skills for a Flanker, not that Pocock is a one trick pony but it think McCaw's play outside of the breakdown is better.

 

[supo]

1.os du randt.
2.sean fitz.
3.carl hayman
4.john eales.
5.colin meads
6.jerry colins
7.richie mccaw (c)
8.zinzan
9.gareth edwards
10.dan carter
11.jonah lomu
12.tim horan
13.darnie gerber
14.rupeni caucau
15.christian cullen.

res.
uli schmidt
jason lenard
vitcor matfield
michael jones (6-7-8-9)
david campese (11-15)
sonny bill williams (12-13)
mark ella (9-10)

yes id like to see plenty of tries!

.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Indeed. Chris Masoe, Marty Holah and even Daniel Braid could have had long distinguished international careers if they were from a different country. Just look how Masoe has come into the Top 14 and single handedly carried Castres to punch above their weight in recent years.

Agreed.I've always been in awe of the strength in depth of NZ rugby.Take Regan King for example.For a while he was up there with BOD when it came to being the best centre in European rugby yet he only got one AB cap.Says it all.

 

[smartcooky]

I think the problem with all this is - people are comparing Pocock who is at his athletic prime - up against a guy turning 33 this year. I tend to agree there have been better jackels this year and over the last four seasons (I acutally rate Brussow over both McCaw and Pocock). Back when McCaw was 22, 23, 24 etc, he was just as impressive if not more so than Pocock. He would win some insane ball. I'd say he stopped being as good as he used to be in that department in 2009. What he has gained however is probably a better all round game. There are still better running 7's than him, but its not a weak area of his - and he combines it with good tackling and good jackling.

Arguably the factor that makes him the best is the fact that he captains the team well. Richie McCaw leads the most successful team - he makes good decisions and knows exactly how to talk to referees. It's these attributes that make him great. Now, yes Pocock is a better jackler - hes not had 12 years of professional rugby while being the most consistent target of dirty tactics. With that said he still hasn't shown hes got the same leadership or all round game as McCaw in my opinion.

Pocock is a great jackler, but as yet, his intuition regarding where to be and when to be is not fully developed; that will come with experience.

The All Blacks totally negated him in the RWC 2011 semi, with a game plan that constantly took the ball away from him (and admittedly, using somewhat underhand tactics at times, such as holding him down at the tackle).

If he stood on the openside, they took the ball to the blindside and vice versa in order to increase his time to the breakdown so that he had no time to use his skills. If he stood close to the tackle/ruck, or if he was openside when there was no running blindside, the ball carrier would run directly at him (with a team-mate right behind like a tender on a steam loco) to commit him to the tackle. That following player would then lean on him to keep him from getting up, or if he did manage to get up, bind to him to create a ruck before he could jackle the ball.

 

[-InvIctus-]

1.Olo Brown
2.Sean Fitzpatrick
3.Carl Heyman
4.John Eales
5.Colin Meads
6.Michael Jones
7.Richie McCaw
8.Zinzan Brooke

9.George Gregan
10.Daniel Carter
11.Jonah Lomu
12.Tim Horan
13.Philippe Sella
14.David Campese
15.Serge Blanco

Love to hear what you guys think and see who you picked in your team.

Brother met him, when asked by a tv crew on camera if he liked him as a player , me brother says he doesn't know him.. --'

 

[smartcooky]

Brother met him, when asked by a tv crew on camera if he liked him as a player , me brother says he doesn't know him.. --'

OFF TOPIC

"-InvIctus-"

Its a bit off stealing someone else's username by making minor changes (adding preceding & following dashes).

The "Real" Invictus is a user who joined about six years ago (around the same time as me)