EPS Form Watch

[Peat]

Agree with every word.

The biggest difference between all head coaches and the"Rugby Public" (ie us lot) in my opinion is that almost without exception we are much quicker to call for change - even the more sensible ones. That has to tell us something, I feel

That their job makes them more conservative.

It doesn't make them more right. If anything, I'll put my trust in a strong consensus from intelligent fans most of the time. Not that there is such a consensus here about what to do.

But I'd like to think its obvious there's still a lot of room for improvement in this team. Ditto that for the front row, the next step of improvement is guys who can Set Piece and Play Rugby. The incumbents (unless you regard Vunipola as an incumbent) probably aren't going to start doing that at their time of life. That means new players. I know there's plenty of reasons to be slow at introducing them, but it still needs doing ASAP. And a desire for experience probably means staggering their exit if possible.

If I was Jones, I think those are the conclusions I'd come to as well. I might have a different idea of what was Possible in terms of the time frame, but not the conclusions. His own words and actions in terms of youngsters promoted says he's looking for more from the team and more from the next generation of front rowers.

 

[Every Time Ref]

That their job makes them more conservative.

It doesn't make them more right. If anything, I'll put my trust in a strong consensus from intelligent fans most of the time. Not that there is such a consensus here about what to do.

But I'd like to think its obvious there's still a lot of room for improvement in this team. Ditto that for the front row, the next step of improvement is guys who can Set Piece and Play Rugby. The incumbents (unless you regard Vunipola as an incumbent) probably aren't going to start doing that at their time of life. That means new players. I know there's plenty of reasons to be slow at introducing them, but it still needs doing ASAP. And a desire for experience probably means staggering their exit if possible.

If I was Jones, I think those are the conclusions I'd come to as well. I might have a different idea of what was Possible in terms of the time frame, but not the conclusions. His own words and actions in terms of youngsters promoted says he's looking for more from the team and more from the next generation of front rowers.

What makes you think you're included among "the more sensible ones", mate...?

To be fair, there was a consensus about Robshaw-Haskell not being up to it as a flanker combo when Jones came in, and we were proved pretty wrong. Hartley was probably a bit more divisive, but still a majority thought he was a disaster waiting to happen.

Also, in this case, as you said, there is no consensus so the point is moot. There is definitely room for improvement (in what team isn't there?) but I agree with the geriatric prostitute above that front row is low on the list of priorities

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

but I agree with the geriatric prostitute above that front row is low on the list of priorities

Change of user name coming right up...

 

[Every Time Ref]

Change of user name coming right up...

And career?

 

[ratsapprentice]

To be fair, there was a consensus about Robshaw-Haskell not being up to it as a flanker combo when Jones came in

Not sure about that.

I think the consensus was that Haskell isn't any more an openside than Robshaw is and that people were frustrated/confused that he was going for an all-tackling, partly ***s-for-hands pairing after watching Japan play.

The point about people being frustrated by the lack of immediacy when it comes to change from coaches is well founded TBH - it's not necessarily that people think change has to happen now, it's that in the past we've had periods of absolutely no change at all for three years, and then all of a sudden we get half the team being turned over.

Change should happen incrementally and systematically - but that's not a byword for no change at all - I've used this comparison before, but it's worth repeating.

Sam Cane and Matt Kvesic both played in the same U20's WC final... 5 years on and Cane has 12 times the number of caps as Kev despite only becoming a regular starter in the last year.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

and to think Cane was against McCaw and Kvesic was against Robshaw.

 

[Peat]

Is his name change going to be Geriatric Prostitute?

More to the point, do I have that power? If not, does Olyy?

What makes you think you're included among "the more sensible ones", mate...?

To be fair, there was a consensus about Robshaw-Haskell not being up to it as a flanker combo when Jones came in, and we were proved pretty wrong. Hartley was probably a bit more divisive, but still a majority thought he was a disaster waiting to happen.

Also, in this case, as you said, there is no consensus so the point is moot. There is definitely room for improvement (in what team isn't there?) but I agree with the geriatric prostitute above that front row is low on the list of priorities

You can only change where you have a solution though. The problem of "Where do we find a set piece capable hooker who's also useful in the loose" has one. Its one of our very few problems where we do have a solution.

I can understand not wanting to bin the captain right away but I'd like to see us pressing towards George as starter as quickly as possible. Besides, if Hartley really is so alone in his captaincy credentials, don't we need to be developing alternatives as quickly as possible there too?

edit:

I think I'd like to see my conclusions on this are

a) I'm not asking for a change tomorrow (but would welcome it) but would like George to get more game time from the bench and starts where possible

b) There is a great deal to pick between the hookers in terms of what they offer and the point to which I initially responded was that there isn't much to choose between them. I disagree with that.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Surely we should be looking for Eddie Jones to challenge the set piece players to increase their work in the loose rather than just change the players out.

I'd rather have Cole and Hartley improve rather than two new players come in and loose all that experience and set price stability.

Jones got Haskell playing to new heights, he just needs to work his magic else where now.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Jones got Haskell playing to new heights, he just needs to work his magic else where now.

He didn't magically make Hask able to do things he couldn't do before though. Changing Cole into a ball carrier is another kettle of fish.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Is his name change going to be Geriatric Prostitute?

More to the point, do I have that power? If not, does Olyy?



You can only change where you have a solution though. The problem of "Where do we find a set piece capable hooker who's also useful in the loose" has one. Its one of our very few problems where we do have a solution.

I can understand not wanting to bin the captain right away but I'd like to see us pressing towards George as starter as quickly as possible. Besides, if Hartley really is so alone in his captaincy credentials, don't we need to be developing alternatives as quickly as possible there too?

edit:

I think I'd like to see my conclusions on this are

a) I'm not asking for a change tomorrow (but would welcome it) but would like George to get more game time from the bench and starts where possible

b) There is a great deal to pick between the hookers in terms of what they offer and the point to which I initially responded was that there isn't much to choose between them. I disagree with that.

I agree with what you say about Hartley and George - not a short term
change but yes George needs more game time. I wouldn't welcome it tomorrow, simply because the group has a leadership hierarchy in place and it is clearly working. Even if there was an obvious replacement captain (which there isn't), a change of leadership always means instability which risks losing what you've got. I'm not saying never change your captain, obviously, but without an obvious replacement there's likely to be repercussions

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He didn't magically make Hask able to do things he couldn't do before though. Changing Cole into a ball carrier is another kettle of fish.

I believe in our saviour Lord Eddie of planet Jones.

I understand what you are saying but he should be working on those things with Cole surely.....who wouldn't.

 

[Which Tyler]

Back on topic (sorry); I've some more stats ready - I know you guys just love them!
Stats for the provisional EPS squad, for the 2015/16 Premiership (+6N). Also included is kicking stats for the entirety 2014/15/16 seasons.

Second set is averages for all stats per 80 minutes played (ie total / minutes played x 80) - except kicking stats; which is just kicking averages - split by conversions and penalties as requested (you *******!)

 

[Peat]

Clifford's broken his ankle, back early December.

I agree with what you say about Hartley and George - not a short term
change but yes George needs more game time. I wouldn't welcome it tomorrow, simply because the group has a leadership hierarchy in place and it is clearly working. Even if there was an obvious replacement captain (which there isn't), a change of leadership always means instability which risks losing what you've got. I'm not saying never change your captain, obviously, but without an obvious replacement there's likely to be repercussions

Really? If Jones said he was confident in the leadership group's ability to keep trucking and that he was going to promote a superior player, you wouldn't be happy?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Clifford's broken his ankle, back early December.



Really? If Jones said he was confident in the leadership group's ability to keep trucking and that he was going to promote a superior player, you wouldn't be happy?

I'd be happy with it because Jones knows the inner workings of the squad better than me and because so far he has been proven right on all his decisions, including (maybe especially) the ones I originally disagreed with.

 

[Which Tyler]

Some fringe players, as requested on the other site I'm posting this stuff.

As ever, you can enlarge the image by copy/pasting the image location into your browser

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Chiefs vs Bristol

LCD - Another very strong performance. Didn't cross the try line this week but his ball-carrying is simply immense, so strong with deceptive pace too. Off if recent performances I'd like to see him take George's place on the bench.

Slade - 2nd game at 12 and I think he did well there. Nothing special but he distributed well and despite being up against a monster centre (Palamo) he made no errors in defence. Slightly skewed performance as he was moved to FB and then to the bench.

Nowell - Should be back from injury next week. With Dollman and Turner injured I'm hoping to see him get a run at 15. With Watson moving back to the wing for Bath, Nowell and Haley are the only young FBs. Hopefully Nowell can actually get some game time there.

Fringe Players:
Alec Hepburn - Good to see him start. As always, had a good work rate and carried well. Nothing too special though.

Sam Hill - I've been disappointed with him recently but he impressed at 13. Scored a very good try and showed good power and awareness to put Woodburn away for his 2nd. Maybe 13 is where he should remain?

Olly Woodburn - I know he's not really anywhere near the England set up but God he's been impressive in the last couple of games.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Chiefs vs Bristol

LCD - Another very strong performance. Didn't cross the try line this week but his ball-carrying is simply immense, so strong with deceptive pace too. Off if recent performances I'd like to see him take George's place on the bench.

Slade - 2nd game at 12 and I think he did well there. Nothing special but he distributed well and despite being up against a monster centre (Palamo) he made no errors in defence. Slightly skewed performance as he was moved to FB and then to the bench.

Nowell - Should be back from injury next week. With Dollman and Turner injured I'm hoping to see him get a run at 15. With Watson moving back to the wing for Bath, Nowell and Haley are the only young FBs. Hopefully Nowell can actually get some game time there.

Fringe Players:
Alec Hepburn - Good to see him start. As always, had a good work rate and carried well. Nothing too special though.

Sam Hill - I've been disappointed with him recently but he impressed at 13. Scored a very good try and showed good power and awareness to put Woodburn away for his 2nd. Maybe 13 is where he should remain?

Olly Woodburn - I know he's not really anywhere near the England set up but God he's been impressive in the last couple of games.

Didn't the line show Hill at 12 and Slade at 13?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Didn't the line show Hill at 12 and Slade at 13?

It did but they changed it before the match. Slade ran out at 12 and Hill 13. Which is the way I prefer it.

 

[brokenoses]

It gave Hill a chance to show he has pace and agility as well as power, beating 3 to score his try.

 

[Geordie]

Is it true that Jones has earmarked Mike Williams for the 7 spot? If true that's a like for like with Haskell.

Suggests he wants a totally destructive force at 7 rather than the fleeter 7's like Kvesic or Evans....

Referring back to Cole offering more...I'd be reluctant to change him. He's a top class scrummaging th who is great St the breakdown and tackles.

Leave him to do that job without adding further requirements.

Lcd at hooker seem to have come on brilliant thus season so far. Good to see. Maybe the bench over George but he won't start ahead of Hartley yet.