EOYT: Wales vs New Zealand, 24/11/2012

[admartian]

apologies, he's likely still just "in doubt" but very unlikely

Dang.

I've not been impressed with Cruden's form this year (at INTL level). He better not be a Stephen Donald where he beasts it during Super Rugby and drops the ball during internationals.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Dang.

I've not been impressed with Cruden's form this year (at INTL level). He better not be a Stephen Donald where he beasts it during Super Rugby and drops the ball during internationals.

Stephen Donald didn't beast it at Super Rugby, he was good but not great.

Cruden dominated Ireland, had to play in the worst conditions ever against Argentina, was ok against SA, and against Italy was ok going backwards all day against a rush defence. Like the majority of 10's he plays miles better when the he is on the front foot. As long as our forwards go alright this week he will be sweet. Unlike Donald he has never had a shocker and cost us a game.

 

[admartian]

Stephen Donald didn't beast it at Super Rugby, he was good but not great.

Cruden dominated Ireland, had to play in the worst conditions ever against Argentina, was ok against SA, and against Italy was ok going backwards all day against a rush defence. Like the majority of 10's he plays miles better when the he is on the front foot. As long as our forwards go alright this week he will be sweet. Unlike Donald he has never had a shocker and cost us a game.

Yet. :snicker

Regarding Suepr rugby performance; semantics. My point still stands. Somewhat.

 

[Helmy]

But... Donald won us the world cup!

 

[Larksea]

Stephen Donald didn't beast it at Super Rugby, he was good but not great.

Cruden dominated Ireland, had to play in the worst conditions ever against Argentina, was ok against SA, and against Italy was ok going backwards all day against a rush defence. Like the majority of 10's he plays miles better when the he is on the front foot. As long as our forwards go alright this week he will be sweet. Unlike Donald he has never had a shocker and cost us a game.

Could also say that unlike Donald he's never really been tested in a tight crunch game at test level yet either. Lucky for him in his first test start against Aussie(?) with carter injured he wasn't going great till he got the shepherds crook and Colin Slade had an impressive showing to see the All Blacks home.

The WC final would have been his next big chance to get though a crunch test but credit for that result goes to Donald as far as the first five's performance goes.

Sure Don had a bad game off the bench and the AB's lost, but he was not the only AB to make a major mistake which cost the game in the last 10min of that "dead rubber" and people also tend to forget that he has come off the bench at least twice and seen the All Blacks come from behind on the scoreboard to win matches that actually mattered and secured silverware. Another thing Cruden has not done yet.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Could also say that unlike Donald he's never really been tested in a tight crunch game at test level yet either. Lucky for him in his first test start against Aussie(?) with carter injured he wasn't going great till he got the shepherds crook and Colin Slade had an impressive showing to see the All Blacks home.

The WC final would have been his next big chance to get though a crunch test but credit for that result goes to Donald as far as the first five's performance goes.

Sure Don had a bad game off the bench and the AB's lost, but he was not the only AB to make a major mistake which cost the game in the last 10min of that "dead rubber" and people also tend to forget that he has come off the bench at least twice and seen the All Blacks come from behind on the scoreboard to win matches that actually mattered and secured silverware. Another thing Cruden has not done yet.

What like the semi final against Aussie? Nailed a drop goal in that one from memory and steered us home.

He was the only AB to make 3 major mistakes in the deciding minutes though! (for the record they were [1] miss an easy penalty to put us out beyind a converted try. [2] we have the advantage from a knock on, on our own line with about 20 seconds left, Donald recieves the ball and should have purposely knocked it on so we had the scrum and then could have kicked it out for the win. [3] instead of securing us the scrum, he then kicked it down the middle, making sure our advantage was over and letting them have another crack at us. If he was going to kick and use our advantage, which was a dumb option anyway, he should have kicked it out).

 

[donmcdazzle]

Yet. :snicker

Regarding Suepr rugby performance; semantics. My point still stands. Somewhat.

What I meant was that Cruden is better at Super level than Donald ever was, so he has more ability to be good at test level, unlike the Don who was in above his head for the AB's.

 

[Larksea]

What like the semi final against Aussie? Nailed a drop goal in that one from memory and steered us home.

14-6 HT 20-6 FT Aussie were basically out of the game from the moment Quade Cooper muffed the kickoff into touch. hardly a testing tight game.

 

[admartian]

I'm talking more recently guys. He's had a few nice games for us. But it seems he's regressed from his form last year/early this year.

 

[donmcdazzle]

14-6 HT 20-6 FT Aussie were basically out of the game from the moment Quade Cooper muffed the kickoff into touch. hardly a testing tight game.

Ok then, if you say a World Cup semi final against our arch enemies isn't a tough test match then I'll take your word for it.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I'm talking more recently guys. He's had a few nice games for us. But it seems he's regressed from his form last year/early this year.

Fair point, but when has he played? Had a huge lay off after Super Rugby and hasn't had any regular footy since. If he plays this weekend I'm sure he will be better than last week, first time since Super rugby he would have had two games in a row.

 

[Darwin]

The WC final would have been his next big chance to get though a crunch test but credit for that result goes to Donald as far as the first five's performance goes.

Hmmmmm......

Cruden played 30 mins of the final. The AB's were largely in control when he was on the field. The score when he left was 5-0 to the AB's, and could well have been more like 14-0 if Weepu hadn't missed 3 simple shots at goal. Donald comes on and plays 50 minutes. During his time on the field the AB's are largely outplayed and get outscored 3-5. If the French had kicked their goals that could well have been 3-11.

The AB's didn't win the RWC because of Donald - if Cruden had been on the field for 80 mins I think we would still have won, and probably more convincingly. We lost any semblance of attacking ability the moment Donald strode his considerable frame onto the field - people don't praise Donald because he had a superb game, they praise him because (for a change) he didn't completely stuff it up. Make no mistake, Cruden was the better performing AB's 10 in the RWC final....

14-6 HT 20-6 FT Aussie were basically out of the game from the moment Quade Cooper muffed the kickoff into touch. hardly a testing tight game.

You seriously don't consider this a crunch game just because we won it convincingly? One of the reasons we won it so convincingly was because or young 10 had a very good game - if we had a lesser player in the 10 jersey (no names will be mentioned....) it may well have been a much closer game!

I'm not suggesting that Cruden is an established international 10 yet, but he has been better at test level in his limited career thus far than Donald ever was. He has the potential to be a world class test player too - he just needs time at this level to develop.

 

[TVH11]

Liam Williams is a pretty physical player imo, never shy'd away from the physical stuff.


Yer I can understand that, not doubting his abilities in the tackle area, just thought he looks a bit thin. Passed him a few times and he looks like he needs a good meal

On the other hand, shame about Carter. More of a chance for us now maybe?

 

[Larksea]

Hmmmmm......

Cruden played 30 mins of the final. The AB's were largely in control when he was on the field. The score when he left was 5-0 to the AB's, and could well have been more like 14-0 if Weepu hadn't missed 3 simple shots at goal. Donald comes on and plays 50 minutes. During his time on the field the AB's are largely outplayed and get outscored 3-5. If the French had kicked their goals that could well have been 3-11.

The AB's didn't win the RWC because of Donald - if Cruden had been on the field for 80 mins I think we would still have won, and probably more convincingly. We lost any semblance of attacking ability the moment Donald strode his considerable frame onto the field - people don't praise Donald because he had a superb game, they praise him because (for a change) he didn't completely stuff it up. Make no mistake, Cruden was the better performing AB's 10 in the RWC final....

You seriously don't consider this a crunch game just because we won it convincingly? One of the reasons we won it so convincingly was because or young 10 had a very good game - if we had a lesser player in the 10 jersey (no names will be mentioned....) it may well have been a much closer game!

I'm not suggesting that Cruden is an established international 10 yet, but he has been better at test level in his limited career thus far than Donald ever was. He has the potential to be a world class test player too - he just needs time at this level to develop.

The QF was an important game but it wasn't a tight game or a game where he came under any real pressure. with the forwards doing as well as they did the AB's could have won that game with any one of NZ's top 8 first fives, maybe more considering Cruden wasn't even kicking goals... Although in hindsight he clearly should have been because weepu basically choked in the later games.

in the final, Donald made more takles in his 50min than any other All Black back apart from smith who only made only two more with an extra 30min, same tackle count as Jerome Kaino! two tackles in particular were critical one forced a turnover that gave the All Blacks the final possession they held to the final hooter, Donald and Dagg Made the All Blacks only two line breaks.

Cruden in his 30min on the field was credited with 1 tackle.

No Donald didn't single highhandedly win the match but his performance was significant. And well ahead of what many of his teammates produced on the day. Even Donald biggest critics should agree that defensively he is very good at all levels, infact maybe one of the only 10's in recent history at the same level as carter in this area. Cruden is a committed defender but doesn't make up for the fact he's still a shrimp physically in comparison. It's questionable if he would have coped with the defensive workload Donald or been anywhere near as effective on defense had as the french lifted their game. You recon the All Blacks would have won easily if cruden played the full 80? If you do I don't think your being honest with yourself if you thought about weather Cruden would have been able to make those tackles and with the strength Donald made them with. If you didn't know for the amount of time he was on the park Donald topped the tackle rate. More tackles per minute than Richie McCaw...

Obviously as the game went on the intensity increased almost exponentially, the first 30min were a pick nick compared to the last 30 where the french got desperate. Heck look back on past world cup knockout games between France and the All Blacks. pick a year, 1999? 2007? 2011? France were a different beast all together in the 2nd half.

for the record, it wasn't me who turned this into a Cruden Vs. Donald Thread!

 

[donmcdazzle]

Haha oh Larksea. When you realise that you are the only one who actually defends Donald, do you think it is because we are all idiots or maybe because you are a tad biased? I'm convinced you either know him or are related to him. Some of your quotes are brilliant. And I love the way you tailor the story to make it suit Donald. There is a reason the vast majority of rugby fans think he was a crap AB; because he was.

Your logic on the semi final doesn't work. I could say the same thing and say we could have won the final with a flanker playing at 10 or any other defensive back cause all he did was tackle.. see it doesn't work.
Against all the odds he didn't have a shocker in the final, like Darwin said this is the reason people praised him, not because he actually had a great game. He did make his tackles and slot an easy kick, and didn't do anything too silly except run the ball into touch at one point, so fair play to him for that. He was never in the same class as Cruden though, either for the Chiefs or the AB's.

 

[dullonien]

All this debate over Cruden. His opposite number is a f**kin' severely out of form Priestland. It doesn't matter!!

 

[Darwin]

The QF was an important game but it wasn't a tight game or a game where he came under any real pressure. with the forwards doing as well as they did the AB's could have won that game with any one of NZ's top 8 first fives, maybe more considering Cruden wasn't even kicking goals... Although in hindsight he clearly should have been because weepu basically choked in the later games.

in the final, Donald made more takles in his 50min than any other All Black back apart from smith who only made only two more with an extra 30min, same tackle count as Jerome Kaino! two tackles in particular were critical one forced a turnover that gave the All Blacks the final possession they held to the final hooter, Donald and Dagg Made the All Blacks only two line breaks.

Cruden in his 30min on the field was credited with 1 tackle.

No Donald didn't single highhandedly win the match but his performance was significant. And well ahead of what many of his teammates produced on the day. Even Donald biggest critics should agree that defensively he is very good at all levels, infact maybe one of the only 10's in recent history at the same level as carter in this area. Cruden is a committed defender but doesn't make up for the fact he's still a shrimp physically in comparison. It's questionable if he would have coped with the defensive workload Donald or been anywhere near as effective on defense had as the french lifted their game. You recon the All Blacks would have won easily if cruden played the full 80? If you do I don't think your being honest with yourself if you thought about weather Cruden would have been able to make those tackles and with the strength Donald made them with. If you didn't know for the amount of time he was on the park Donald topped the tackle rate. More tackles per minute than Richie McCaw...

Obviously as the game went on the intensity increased almost exponentially, the first 30min were a pick nick compared to the last 30 where the french got desperate. Heck look back on past world cup knockout games between France and the All Blacks. pick a year, 1999? 2007? 2011? France were a different beast all together in the 2nd half.

for the record, it wasn't me who turned this into a Cruden Vs. Donald Thread!

If we had a proper first-five on the field for the last 50 mins of the final (rather than one whose sole abilities are to tackle and run hard in a straight line) I believe we would have won more comfortably. We would have actually attacked with ball in hand, probably scored some more points, and would likely have spent a whole lot less time defending! This is all speculation off course, but the belief that we wouldn't have won the RWC final had Donald not come on is truly bizarre in my opinion.

 

[admartian]

The QF was an important game but it wasn't a tight game or a game where he came under any real pressure. with the forwards doing as well as they did the AB's could have won that game with any one of NZ's top 8 first fives, maybe more considering Cruden wasn't even kicking goals... Although in hindsight he clearly should have been because weepu basically choked in the later games.

in the final, Donald made more takles in his 50min than any other All Black back apart from smith who only made only two more with an extra 30min, same tackle count as Jerome Kaino! two tackles in particular were critical one forced a turnover that gave the All Blacks the final possession they held to the final hooter, Donald and Dagg Made the All Blacks only two line breaks.

Cruden in his 30min on the field was credited with 1 tackle.

No Donald didn't single highhandedly win the match but his performance was significant. And well ahead of what many of his teammates produced on the day. Even Donald biggest critics should agree that defensively he is very good at all levels, infact maybe one of the only 10's in recent history at the same level as carter in this area. Cruden is a committed defender but doesn't make up for the fact he's still a shrimp physically in comparison. It's questionable if he would have coped with the defensive workload Donald or been anywhere near as effective on defense had as the french lifted their game. You recon the All Blacks would have won easily if cruden played the full 80? If you do I don't think your being honest with yourself if you thought about weather Cruden would have been able to make those tackles and with the strength Donald made them with. If you didn't know for the amount of time he was on the park Donald topped the tackle rate. More tackles per minute than Richie McCaw...

Obviously as the game went on the intensity increased almost exponentially, the first 30min were a pick nick compared to the last 30 where the french got desperate. Heck look back on past world cup knockout games between France and the All Blacks. pick a year, 1999? 2007? 2011? France were a different beast all together in the 2nd half.

for the record, it wasn't me who turned this into a Cruden Vs. Donald Thread!

I'm going to agree with this.

I remember thinking to myself - "it's bizarro world that Donald is probably the best AB on the park right now."

If we had a proper first-five on the field for the last 50 mins of the final (rather than one whose sole abilities are to tackle and run hard in a straight line) I believe we would have won more comfortably. We would have actually attacked with ball in hand, probably scored some more points, and would likely have spent a whole lot less time defending! This is all speculation off course, but the belief that we wouldn't have won the RWC final had Donald not come on is truly bizarre in my opinion.

This is valid as well.

However, it's hard to say that "we would have won more comfortably" - considering that the middle part of the game was so close. I think save from DC, anyone else would've had a hard time as Donald did.

DC there, in the beginning would've controlled the match better imo. Maybe not the thrashing most of the nation was predicting the week prior; but I reckon more of a 21 - 8 sort of scoreline.

I seriously doubt Cruden (who was simply just developing his game, and a very very jittery Slade, or a very untested Delany; would've done a better job than Donald.

Maybe Weepu at 10. But his goalkicking was so poor I wouldn't have been comfortable for him to be the only kicking option.

 

[nickdnz]

Donald doesn't look exceptionally good for Bath at the moment...Certainly don't think he's performing as well as Ford, Evans, Botica, Hodgson, Burns or Mieres at the moment. He was an average All Black who to suggest he was great during the RWC is obsurd. He was alright. He made tackles. Was he creative? No. Controlled the game well? No. Dangerous with ball in hand? No. He made tackles (and I don't credit him with that turnover - there were two other players involved there). He didn't cost us the game, but I don't think you would have lost much if you threw Andrew Hore there in his place.

The most dangerous he looked with ball in hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9eKGvYuy08

 

[Draggs]

Still think Tony Brown should have played the final. NZ 108-7 France.