EOYT: Wales vs New Zealand, 24/11/2012

[William18]

Zapphod, you sound like a ABs bandwagoner.

If the NZ team was losing as much as Wales were, you would have abandoned the team ages ago. Just look at 2009 when after only a few losses, NZ couldnt even sell out their home test matches. So please, stop posting rubbish in here. You come off sounding like an arrogant snob.

I don't see how he sounds like a bandwagoner. There is nothing in his posts which suggests he would stop supporting us when we were losing. You could say he sounds arrogant (which I don't think he is, he is just doing a poor job of explaining himself) but not a bandwagoner. Also all our 2009 Tri Nations games seem to have sold out. Just looking now, we seem to have got a poor crowd against Italy in Christchurch but I doubt that had anything to do with our performances.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Take a look at the Ireland - South Africa thread from a couple of weeks back it will show you that people in the NH will not stand for narrow losses to the SH teams when the team don't stand up and play at all.

You don't score two tries against NZ without playing a bit of rugby. I agree that NZ took it easy and I also think you have to be pretty desperate to have to resort a 13 man line out but Wales did show some positive signs in the last twenty minutes, most Welsh fans would tell you that the performance was not acceptable and would also be pretty livid from this years series but they did start to play rugby in the last 20 mins and you can't take that away from them.

 

[admartian]

Wales outplayed NZ for the last 15 I reckon (helped by the Jane card) but still. They looked good. And while I missed the first half (due to an alarm not going off) I thought Cruden played well.

 

[Draggs]

I could be available too!
I can't kick, so play me at standoff.

 

[Tawa002]

Wales in my view won the second half, credit to the fitness trainers I say, There are teams out their that would
have just gone into containment mode (just limit the damage attitude).

A loss is never easy but Welsh fans I think could be pleased with a late surge of bloody good attacking rugby.

 

[Zapphod]

'Yeah what ever' - Of course I wanted an answer from you, that doesn't mean your always right.
I don't expect you to defend anyone - I expect you to graciously accept your win and not lord it over others like you've just done.


Edit: You're not getting the point, you've just said you could improve in other areas in the Olympics. You know you weren't good enough. It's EXACTLY what we're saying on this forum about rugby. Everyone's always talking about why we don't perform and how we can improve. Nobody is saying we are better than the SH, and every Wales fan will admit they were outplayed - just like every Ireland fan will admit we got thumped in the summer.

You say you hope the extra funding will help you in other sports - we hope the small, but growing interest in rugby will hopefully help produce more top quality players.
I suggest you looking up in a dictionary what hypocrisy is.

I am not lording anything over anyone in fact I am less than convinced that the AB's played well but I missed most of the first half so I will wait for the replay, but in the second half from the point that Weepu came on the AB's more or less stopped and this was compounded by Janes yellow card so my opinion is that there are other reasons Wales "improved" in the last 20 minutes.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Harsh on a few there Draggs. Liam Williams was better than most today, although I agree that he looked a little nuts, but he always does with his hair going all over the place. Stood up physically, and didn't have much chance in attack. Did the right thing, with quick hands to put Cuthbert in for his try.

I also thought Warburton and Shingler deserved a few more points. I'd have given Warbs a 7 and Shingler a 6.5. Faletau was much improved in the second half as well.

I thought that Warbs showed some glimpses of his old form offered a lot more today and could be seen more at the breakdown area. Shingler impressed me also, put a lot of graft in today. Paul James was another put some solid work in but what will have left him down was the chance he knocked on with an overlap. Liam Williams was good in defence, but not under the high ball, he came quite a few times and just caught air, but his tackling was good.

I look back at the game today and I have to admit there is a clear different skill set between Wales and New Zealand. I personally think it goes back to grass root rugby that is taught. It's quite simple, it was even clear in the warm ups. It was simple handling and passing the ball, the way NZ shift the ball from player to player is impressive and also the way they look after the ball. During the warm up it was pure class to watch the All Blacks doing the simple handling in 4s drill, every pass was precise. Wales cannot do this / do not do this well. I look at what is taught in schools / clubs it's simply not happening. I have spent time doing this with the school side and I can say that my club side is starting to do more of it in training. This is not solely the reason why Wales lost but it actually played a role.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just seen the 15 man lineout/maul - thought people were over exaggerating on facebook :lol:
Amazing!

 

[Rhyer]

Cruden was good but he's no Carter.

Was that 13 man lineout legal? I thought you had to have the same number in the lineouts.

 

[Thingimubob]

Completely agree with Cymro about the passing stuff, the skills are instilled into them for such a young age, so for the most part they dont do the same simple mistakes that the likes of Wales do constantly.

Only seen highlights of this, can already tell Priestland was just bloody awful, he needs to be dropped now, it's just getting ridiculous. If Biggar doesn't pull through for next week, we are utterly screwed with Hook being unavailable!
Guessing the first half was a case of more of the same drab uninterested shite that we've seen from Wales in the last two games? Nice too see some fire in the team in the 2nd half - something missing from both of the last two games. Cracking pass from Liam Williams to put Cuthbert in for a good finish.

Also 13 man line out ftw. Just pure epicness. Someone needs to GIF that **** up!

EDIT: @Rhyer yupp as far as I know it was. Anyway it's completely up to the attacking team how many they put in to the line out, so how could it have been illegal (against Wales anyway)? Suppose it could've been a free kick if NZ didnt have the right numbers, but then it's advantage Wales anyway if they nab the catch and drive it up.

 

[dullonien]

Completely agree with Cymro about the passing stuff, the skills are instilled into them for such a young age, so for the most part they dont do the same simple mistakes that the likes of Wales do constantly.

Only seen highlights of this, can already tell Priestland was just bloody awful, he needs to be dropped now, it's just getting ridiculous. If Biggar doesn't pull through for next week, we are utterly screwed with Hook being unavailable!
Guessing the first half was a case of more of the same drab uninterested shite that we've seen from Wales in the last two games? Nice too see some fire in the team in the 2nd half - something missing from both of the last two games. Cracking pass from Liam Williams to put Cuthbert in for a good finish.

Also 13 man line out ftw. Just pure epicness. Someone needs to GIF that **** up!

EDIT: @Rhyer yupp as far as I know it was. Anyway it's completely up to the attacking team how many they put in to the line out, so how could it have been illegal (against Wales anyway)? Suppose it could've been a free kick if NZ didnt have the right numbers, but then it's advantage Wales anyway if they nab the catch and drive it up.

The first half was just full of mistakes really. The players were up for it and actually looked OK in patches. Knock ons from everyone and two missed kicks to touch meant that we had no momentum and gave NZ all the initiative. Couple that with 17 missed tackles and it's quite easy to see how NZ racked up 23 points by half time. NZ didn't have to do much to get that lead, just take the chances when presented.

The defensive side of the performance was the biggest disappointment imo. For a side that has taken pride in its defence during the time Shaun Edwards has been involved, to miss so many first up tackles was crazy. Jon Davies and Cuthbert were just slipping off tackles they should be expected to make.

It was an improvement in the second half, but the game was already over. We could have scored 5 tries and got within a few points in the second half and it wouldn't have made much difference to the fact that we were already out of the game by half time.

 

[willrobinson]

It was a much improved performance by wales today in many aspects.
The line outs were much improved, I am not sure how many we lost but i think we won the vast majority. Rees had a good day with the line outs which
doesn't happen every weekTeam sheet after 10 minutes
Just to warn you I don't pay much attention to front row so cant really say much about there performance

1 james played ok from my view
2 Rees had a good day in the lineouts
3 Andrews seemed decent enough to me was hard to review his scrumiging as he had no second row
4 Ryan jones had a bad game for his high standards and missed loads of tackles

5 Charteris was good in lineouts and seemed to make a nuisance in rucks

6 shingler had a good game and went looking for everything I think definitely claimed a place next week if I was coach.

7 Warburton seemed to be improving and was very unlucky to get pinged for a wrong decision not sure on his leadership i personally would of gone for the posts early on

8 Faletau had an improved game I think he lost the ball a couple of times in contact but had that great run at the end

9 phillips had a decent game but it is hard to shine when your job is to pass to preistland

10 Preistland what can I say still in dismal form my head goes down every time Phillips gives it him. Boots every chance away and missed two vital kicks for touch

11 . L.williams played like a mad man i was watching the game with my 12yr old "urban" cousin and he kept saying "rar this geezers a madman" haha but he seemed to struggle under high balls but provided decent cover on the wing with some great defensive decision making

12 williams played decent a few spills in contact I think and missed tackles but overall decent

13 davis ran one or two good lines but to no success not a great defensive performance but made a good steal to gain possession

14 Cuthbert had a good game showed a bit of in experience with his break but there was no one on his shoulder so cant blame him to much. He was alright in defense making a good decisions but got clattered for the try when he should of tackled him easily.

15 halfpenny solid in defense but missed his kicks and didn't get a proper chance in attack.


Tipuric was strong made 1 or 2 turnovers and the dual opensides seemed to work quite smoothly as warburton is playing more like a blindside currently anyway.

Knoyle made a bit of a impact and kept the speed up when they had forward ball in the latter parts of the game

Hook had a decent 10 minutes like always what does he have to do to get noticed at 10 on the wing.

Roberts what has happened the last three games he is getting smashed every week.

And felt sorry for Davis obvious cheap shot which I feel had a bigger impact on the game then people are recognizing as we lacked a lot of bulk in he scrums and ruc.Scrums struggled but we only had one lock and our third choice tighthead on so hard to judge but worried about next week if charteris is returning to france or not ?

my review
Team sheet after 10 minutes
Just to warn you I don't pay much attention to front row so cant really say much about there performance unless it is particularly bad/good
1 james played ok from my view
2 Rees had a good day in the lineouts
3 Andrews seemed decent enough to me was hard to review his scrumiging as he had no second row
4 Ryan jones had a bad game for his high standards and missed loads of tackles
5 Charteris was good in lineouts and seemed to make a nuisance in rucks
6 shingler had a good game and went looking for everything I think definitely claimed a place next week if I was coach.
7 Warburton seemed to be improving and was very unlucky to get pinged for a wrong decision not sure on his leadership i personally would of gone for the posts early on
8 Faletau had an improved game I think he lost the ball a couple of times in contact but had that great run at the end

9 phillips had a decent game but it is hard to shine when your job is to pass to preistland

10 Preistland what can I say still in dismal form my head goes down every time Phillips gives it him. Boots every chance away and missed two vital kicks for touch

11 . L.williams played like a mad man i was watching the game with my 12yr old "urban" cousin and he kept saying "rar this geezers a madman" haha but he seemed to struggle under high balls but provided decent cover on the wing with some great defensive decision making

12 williams played decent a few spills in contact I think and missed tackles but overall decent

13 davis ran one or two good lines but to no success not a great defensive performance but made a good steal to gain possession

14 Cuthbert had a good game showed a bit of in experience with his break but there was no one on his shoulder so cant blame him to much. He was alright in defense making a good decisions but got clattered for the try when he should of tackled him easily.

15 halfpenny solid in defense but missed his kicks and didn't get a proper chance in attack.

Tipuric was strong made 1 or 2 turnovers and the dual opensides seemed to work quite smoothly as warburton is playing more like a blindside currently anyway.

Knoyle made a bit of a impact and kept the speed up when they had forward ball in the latter parts of the game

Hook had a decent 10 minutes like always what does he have to do to get noticed at 10 on the wing.

Roberts what has happened the last three games he is getting smashed every week.

And felt sorry for Davis obvious cheap shot which I feel had a bigger impact on the game then people are recognizing as we lacked a lot of bulk in he scrums and rucks

 

[Darwin]

Cruden was good but he's no Carter.

Was that 13 man lineout legal? I thought you had to have the same number in the lineouts.

Yep, as Thingimubob has pointed out there is no limit on the number of players an attacking team can put into the lineout. The only limitation is that they must all fit between the 5m and the 15m line, which they managed to do (though it was pretty tight!). It was interesting to see the AB's contest the lineout rather than go for the more traditional maul stopping option (stand facing the opposition and wait for them to catch the ball). I think it was a bit of a gamble by the AB's - if they had somehow managed to steal the ball it likely would have been 7 points down the other end!

 

[willrobinson]

I look back at the game today and I have to admit there is a clear different skill set between Wales and New Zealand. I personally think it goes back to grass root rugby that is taught. It's quite simple, it was even clear in the warm ups. It was simple handling and passing the ball, the way NZ shift the ball from player to player is impressive and also the way they look after the ball. During the warm up it was pure class to watch the All Blacks doing the simple handling in 4s drill, every pass was precise. Wales cannot do this / do not do this well. I look at what is taught in schools / clubs it's simply not happening. I have spent time doing this with the school side and I can say that my club side is starting to do more of it in training. This is not solely the reason why Wales lost but it actually played a role.

I completely agree the skills they have drilled in at a very small age are far superior to what we learn at that age. i reckon A under 16 team from nz would almost destroy a semi pro colts team from Britain if they came over they just have higher levels of training and better facilities from a much younger age then we do over hear.

 

[Bazzy]

Andrew Hore is such an ass. Hope he gets a lengthy ban.

Was very happy with the first half and ideally would have loved it if the ABs played with the same intensity for the whole game. Though to Wales credit they were a lot better in the second half / latter part of second half and didn't really let us play the game in our terms.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Player ratings for NZ:

1 Woodcock 7/10 - Scored his usual try, was ok in the scrums, wasn't sighted much during play though.
2 Hore 6/10 - Not a particularly busy effort.
3 Franks 6.5/10 - Made tackles, scrummaged well.
4 Romano 7/10 - Went for a few good runs and tackled fiercely. No issues at lineout time.
5 Whitelock 7.5/10 - Solid on defence, making a fair few tackles. Again, no problems with the lineouts.
6 Messam 8/10 - Made plenty of tackles and didn't take a step back on attack or defence.
7 McCaw 8/10 - Top tackler, though also missed a few. Looked good around the field in general play.
8 Read 7/10 - Good at the back of the scrum, but not as prominent as we've become accustomed too in the past.

9 Smith 7.5/10 - Passed well, made a few good darts, a much better performance from last week, with a bit of front foot ball.
10 Cruden 7.5/10 - Kicked effectively, ordered the back line around. Didn't feature a lot in attacking plays, though I don't recall NZ actually making many...
11 Savea 8/10 - Made some strong runs and looked for support. Still looks a bit shaky under the high ball, and needs to take the ball at pace instead from a standing start.
12 Nonu 7.5 - Tackled well in the midfield, ran good lines and backed up on attack.
13 Smith 7/10 - Usual quality standard, without standing out in any particular area.
14 Jane 6.5/10 - Chased kicks well and was good on defence, but wasn't sighted much in general play. Docked points for his yellow card.
15 Dagg 7.5 - Made one fantastic break at the start of Messam's try, and was good at carving off territory with his kicks.

16 Coles 7/10 - Was effective in all areas of play.
17 Crockett 6/10 - Not sighted much on attack, but defended ably.
18 Faumuina 5/10 - Did little after coming on for Franks, though scrums didn't budge.
19 Retalick 6.5/10 - One poor tackle miss, otherwise effective as a sub.
20 Vito 5/10 - Wasn't given a lot of time to make his mark.
21 Weepu 3/10 - Did nothing for the game, except not feeding a scrum which lead to Wales' penalty and subsequent first try.
22 Barrett 5/10 - Passed a few times, tackled a bit and dropped a ball - nothing to enterprising for his small cameo.
23 Smith N/A - No time to make an impact.

 

[dullonien]

Yep, as Thingimubob has pointed out there is no limit on the number of players an attacking team can put into the lineout. The only limitation is that they must all fit between the 5m and the 15m line, which they managed to do (though it was pretty tight!). It was interesting to see the AB's contest the lineout rather than go for the more traditional maul stopping option (stand facing the opposition and wait for them to catch the ball). I think it was a bit of a gamble by the AB's - if they had somehow managed to steal the ball it likely would have been 7 points down the other end!

I could see this tactic being used more as a do or die move at the end of a game. Last move, a try to win, why not?

 

[Draggs]

Agree with most of your calls there, Will.
I seem to be one of the few people who think Williams was pretty rubbish. I didn't realise running around looking mental made a player decent.
Cuthbert is a good player. Young and plenty of potential, a better wing than North.

 

[Helmy]

Great first sixty minutes to the ABs, last twenty turned into a bit of a shambles. We never seemed to recover from Wales' try and Jane's card. The backline looked very slick in the first half, some really nice inter-passing going on there. I was thinking just after the second half it was looking like it could be the All Blacks' best performance this year, but they definitely took the foot off the pedal at the end.

 

[Gay-Guy]

I am a bit disappointed in Wales' progress since the quarterfinal of the RWC where in my opinion they played the best game of the tournament against Ireland. Since that day they seem to be going backwards. They showed in that quarter final that they have the ability to beat anyone (Ireland also showed that as well)...but sadly they have not shown that ability consistently.

NZ are not genetically better....nor does NZ have better resources than other countries. There is more money playing rugby outside of NZ which is why many kiwis leave. NZ does not even top the countries when it comes to player base. The only reason why NZ wins is because of the type of mentality the kiwi kids have at junior level...the same mentality Brazilian kids have when playing football. NZ kids are encouraged to have a go with the ball...the risky stuff of their heroes. Later on they learn to try this risky stuff within the structure of a team gameplan. Coaches are told to allow kids to back themselves even if it is not conducive to the team plan. As kids go through the levels the better kids at backing themselves come through to the top....until at the very top it is simply a matter of gelling a team of individuals who back their own ability.

Skills on their own are not enough though to be at the top...you also need ruthlessness. Which is why the Fifa World Cup is not always won by Brazil but by clinical countries like Germany. New Zealand are lucky that for every attacking Waka Nathan player they produced they also produced a Colin Meads thug. This is why NZ struggles with France quite a bit....because French rugby has a culture of flair with thuggery and will sometimes wake up and all 22 players will back themselves and their own ability to smash the All Black pack and then slice the All Black backs with deceptively crafted moves.

Wales need to encourage their rugby kids to have a go...take a risk. Have a go at sidestepping for the slight kids...and have a go at smashing tackles for the heavier kids. Allowing and encouraging kids to be daring develops a higher skill level....and only later on when kids have developed skills do you start to get older kids to work within a gameplan.

For Welsh kids to aspire to something...the Welsh national team needs players who capture the imagination of their fans....willing to have a go even if they lose. The last time a Welsh player amazed kiwis was when Shane Williams dazzled the ABs in the 2003 RWC. Wales need backs who believe in their ability and are willing to have a go and forwards who are tough enough and don't take a backward step. Only then will the seed be planted in Welsh kids to follow their heroes