[EOYT] France vs. New Zealand 09/11/13

[jessta]

He wasn't.

He is a great example of why I am so envious of the AB's development system and attitude to playing new players in general.
You don't have this crippling fear of playing new guys just because they're new that England seem to.

Piutau was well managed though, eased into more and more game time slowly after time. You look at the wallabies who have a player of great potential in kirrundrani, but rather then edging him in like the ABs do, he was thrown straight into the deep end. Abs know how to get the best out of there young folk, its the same in how ardie savea is being managed.

 

[Darwin]

Seeing as people seemed to miss it i'll state it again smith was average... not poor not terrible just average. Kerr Barlow pretty much made the play of the game for us. How anybody can deny him that is just a crock of ****.

So you agree that Smith had a solid game now? Less than 20 posts ago you stated:

Smith was pretty bad in this game aswell.

People didn't miss anything. You have just given a number of contrasting views on a player performance.

Kerr-Barlow did a great job in denying the French try. Who is denying this? There is no doubt defense is a major strength of his, and it was great to see him finally make a good contribution from the bench for the AB's. If the AB's game plan was to spend the whole game defending he would be without doubt the AB's number 1 halfback. However the AB's have a bizarre game plan involving using the ball in hand occasionally.....

Nonu was fine not outstanding but you could see everything he did made the french think twice. You got to put the credit where it should be Fofana for the french was superb. Anybody wearing that 12 jearsey for us probably would of made the same mistakes as nonu if not worse.

Fofona played very well for France, but to suggest that anyone wearing the AB's 12 jersey would have missed the same number of tackles (or more) than Nonu did this match is truly bizarre. There wasn't a huge amount of deception in the French backline play. They ran hard and Fofana cut back well against the traffic - the tackles Nonu missed were relatively simple 1-on-1 tackles (not only on Fofona). Nonu has marked Fofona before on a number of occasions and hasn't had too many issues stopping him - he did a great job on containing him in the June series (barely missing a tackle). I have never seen Nonu miss as many tackles in a game before - he had a very poor game on defense which was unusual for him as he is usually a pretty reliable defender (the updated stats from scrum.com have him making 6 tackles but missing 5...).

Agreed on Ellis. He has been the kingpin in the ITM cup for Canturbury... honestly he is incredibly unlucky not to be in team especially with peranara's injury's. I do wonder weather something else is going on there behind the scenes as it just seems odd.

I don't think there is anything going on behind the scenes. The main thing the AB's selectors want from their halfback is a long, accurate passing game. Kerr-Barlow, Smith, Perenara and Weepu all have long flat passes. Andy Ellis does not. Because of this he won't get a look in.

 

[smartcooky]

^^ IMO Piutau should get a shot at fullback. Dagg needs another wake up call imo (i still think he's pretty overrated).

His positioning at fullback was inch perfect nearly all game, and his line kicking in general play was outstanding. Even on the one occasion when he was caught slightly out of position, he managed to catch the ball off-balance, and as he went down, threw the long pass to Ben Smith, that started the movement which led to Piutau's try. Also, you seem to have forgotten his involvement in two of the tries in Dunedin against the Aussies.

You can't expect any player to be Superman every time they go onto the pitch, so why do you expect it of him?

I agree about the front rowers.... this area actually concerns me the most about this team. Our front row is in decline imo. They are actually getting worse not better.

I'm going to reserve judgment on the FR this tour until I see them play on a pitch that isn't like a Turkish Rug on a polished floor!!


ETA: That pitch was worse than Millennium Stadium on a bad day. A bloody disgrace!

 

[Darwin]

His positioning at fullback was inch perfect nearly all game, and his line kicking in general play was outstanding. Even on the one occasion when he was caught slightly out of position, he managed to catch the ball off-balance, and as he went down, threw the long pass to Ben Smith, that started the movement which led to Piutau's try. Also, you seem to have forgotten his involvement in two of the tries in Dunedin against the Aussies.

You can't expect any player to be Superman every time they go onto the pitch, so why do you expect it of him?

While I agree that Dagg's positional play was pretty good, I do think Dagg needs to up his game. The best aspect of his play (his ability under the high ball) wasn't tested this match, and his line-kicking is usually exceptional, but was no-where up to his usual standard this match.

The most concerning aspect of Dagg's play is his defense. He seems to miss far more tackles than he makes these days - if he opposition breaks the line you can't rely on him to make the final tackle (the best you can hope for is he slows the player down a bit). Indeed he missed the final tackle in the French try. While some may argue that it was a difficult tackle to make Dagg got himself into a terrible position defensively. He he needed to be hard up in the line to tackle the player when he received the ball - instead he was deep and (for some bizarre reason) outside the final French defender (he should have been in front of him.....).

His attacking play is also incredibly predictable these days. Every time he gets the ball he slows and does the same extravagant side-step. This usually results in him being tackled well behind the advantage line leaving the AB's under pressure. He still can produce moments of brilliance with ball in hand but these are few and far between these days.

Personally I can see why the AB's selectors stick with him - his massive punt, good positional play, and outstanding work under the high ball is invaluable at test level. However I do think his defense is a massive issue, and he needs to start backing himself more with ball in hand, and stop being so predictable.....

 

[austingtir]

So you agree that Smith had a solid game now? Less than 20 posts ago you stated:


No way did Smith have a Solid game. Average and solid are two different words i suspect you dont know the meaning of either of them!

He had another box kick charged down (which cost us 3 points and actually gave the french a **** load of momentum which they otherwise probably wouldnt of got). Was a liability on defence wasnt that effective on attack but passed the usual standard of the headless chook that he is.

 

[austingtir]

His positioning at fullback was inch perfect nearly all game, and his line kicking in general play was outstanding. Even on the one occasion when he was caught slightly out of position, he managed to catch the ball off-balance, and as he went down, threw the long pass to Ben Smith, that started the movement which led to Piutau's try. Also, you seem to have forgotten his involvement in two of the tries in Dunedin against the Aussies.

You can't expect any player to be Superman every time they go onto the pitch, so why do you expect it of him?



I'm going to reserve judgment on the FR this tour until I see them play on a pitch that isn't like a Turkish Rug on a polished floor!!


ETA: That pitch was worse than Millennium Stadium on a bad day. A bloody disgrace!

Honestly Dagg...... can you remember how hard he had to play rolling into the WC 2011? He is a complete shadow of that player. Mills kept him at bay for quite a while. IMO Piutau and Ben Smith have been dealt pretty ****ty cards on this deal.

End of the day you gotta play to the conditions its like suggesting woodcock and co have never played in a mudbath.... The french stated after the game they got the better of us in that aspect and I fully agree with them. Other than that one completely brainless moment right at the end.

Also I still dont think your giving Fofana enough credit. The guy just flat out broke our defence all day its like the test series earlier in the year with picamoles being the lone ranger for the french. Fofana was that good in this particular game.

Id like to see a break down of exactly who Nonu missed those tackles on and the situation he was under. I think most of them will be under broken play or against Fofana.
I just dont think a few missed tackles is that big a deal compared with the rest of his game. If it was A Smith on the other hand id be crying blue murder so there you go. LOL.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

McCaw and Retallick made 19 tackles each. Epic!

 

[austingtir]

Also I still dont think your giving Fofana enough credit. The guy just flat out broke our defence all day its like the test series earlier in the year with picamoles being the lone ranger for the french. Fofana was that good in this particular game.

Id like to see a break down of exactly who Nonu missed those tackles on and the situation he was under. I think most of them will be under broken play or against Fofana.
I just dont think a few missed tackles is that big a deal compared with the rest of his game. If it was A Smith on the other hand id be crying blue murder so there you go. LOL.

In saying all this if Nonu is no good against England this coming weekend i might start to agree with you. As it was either him Carter A Smith or Conrad that was rubbish last year.... probably all four actually.

 

[admartian]

ALso, for the life of me, why was Dan subbed off early? And there was some other subs that got me thinking that Hansen was just trying to lose the game...

While I agree that Dagg's positional play was pretty good, I do think Dagg needs to up his game. The best aspect of his play (his ability under the high ball) wasn't tested this match, and his line-kicking is usually exceptional, but was no-where up to his usual standard this match.

The most concerning aspect of Dagg's play is his defense. He seems to miss far more tackles than he makes these days - if he opposition breaks the line you can't rely on him to make the final tackle (the best you can hope for is he slows the player down a bit). Indeed he missed the final tackle in the French try. While some may argue that it was a difficult tackle to make Dagg got himself into a terrible position defensively. He he needed to be hard up in the line to tackle the player when he received the ball - instead he was deep and (for some bizarre reason) outside the final French defender (he should have been in front of him.....).

His attacking play is also incredibly predictable these days. Every time he gets the ball he slows and does the same extravagant side-step. This usually results in him being tackled well behind the advantage line leaving the AB's under pressure. He still can produce moments of brilliance with ball in hand but these are few and far between these days.

Personally I can see why the AB's selectors stick with him - his massive punt, good positional play, and outstanding work under the high ball is invaluable at test level. However I do think his defense is a massive issue, and he needs to start backing himself more with ball in hand, and stop being so predictable.....

I agree with all this.

Izzy is a sepcial player, and one of ym personal favourites. But his trend this year (and in recent seasons) has been that he either just falls down or misses the tackle. His attack has been better recently, so I actually think he makes a few guys miss lately.

But yeah, that defence needs wokring.

No way did Smith have a Solid game. Average and solid are two different words i suspect you dont know the meaning of either of them!

He had another box kick charged down (which cost us 3 points and actually gave the french a **** load of momentum which they otherwise probably wouldnt of got). Was a liability on defence wasnt that effective on attack but passed the usual standard of the headless chook that he is.

Are you Andy Ellis? Sorr about Aaron taking your job mate.

Also I still dont think your giving Fofana enough credit. The guy just flat out broke our defence all day its like the test series earlier in the year with picamoles being the lone ranger for the french. Fofana was that good in this particular game.

Id like to see a break down of exactly who Nonu missed those tackles on and the situation he was under. I think most of them will be under broken play or against Fofana.
I just dont think a few missed tackles is that big a deal compared with the rest of his game. If it was A Smith on the other hand id be crying blue murder so there you go. LOL.

Who isn't giving Fofana credit? Guy was beasting all game. Can't see anyone hating on the guy.

 

[Darwin]

ALso, for the life of me, why was Dan subbed off early? And there was some other subs that got me thinking that Hansen was just trying to lose the game...

Yep, I was surprised how early he was subbed too. Obviously they have a lot of faith in Cruden, but with the game still not yet decided (and Carter goal-kicking like a machine) I was surprised they took him off at all!

Also I still dont think your giving Fofana enough credit. The guy just flat out broke our defence all day its like the test series earlier in the year with picamoles being the lone ranger for the french. Fofana was that good in this particular game.

Id like to see a break down of exactly who Nonu missed those tackles on and the situation he was under. I think most of them will be under broken play or against Fofana.
I just dont think a few missed tackles is that big a deal compared with the rest of his game. If it was A Smith on the other hand id be crying blue murder so there you go. LOL.

Fofona kept breaking the defense because Nonu kept missing tackles! It is not that hard to understand. If Nonu had made the tackles (which in most cases weren't that difficult) Fofona wouldn't have made the breaks. Fofona is a very elusive player but Nonu (and other players) have contained him in the past. He is not unstoppable. Of course Fofona deserves a huge amount of credit for the way he played (I thought he was easily the best of the french players on the day), but if Nonu had defended better he wouldn't have made as many breaks.

McCaw and Retallick made 19 tackles each. Epic!

We are starting to expect this sort of output from Retallick every week. Hopefully he has firmly established himself as a first choice lock now as barring ball running (and perhaps scrummaging?) he is a vastly superior player than Romano

So you agree that Smith had a solid game now? Less than 20 posts ago you stated:

No way did Smith have a Solid game. Average and solid are two different words i suspect you dont know the meaning of either of them!

Really? I was totally unaware that two words that are spelt and sound very different have different meanings

Though they clearly have different meanings it is entirely possible for a player to have both a solid game and an average game. Indeed if a players game is described as solid it usually means he has played alright, made few mistakes, but not stood out (sounds like average to me!). Regardless I was simply inquiring whether you thought Smith had a solid game (and if not, why not?), as you changed your opinion as to how well he played within a few posts (from "pretty bad" to "average... not poor not terrible just average").

He had another box kick charged down (which cost us 3 points and actually gave the french a **** load of momentum which they otherwise probably wouldnt of got). Was a liability on defence wasnt that effective on attack but passed the usual standard of the headless chook that he is.

That's exactly why it isn't worth debating this with you. You simply make things up. There was nothing wrong with Smith's defense, just as there has been nothing wrong with his defense all year (apart from in your head). The stats suggest he made 8/9 tackles - an excellent defensive display be any halfbacks standard!

 

[nickdnz]

I get the feelling Carter may have been taken off to guarentee he would reach 100 caps this tour.

 

[austingtir]

That's exactly why it isn't worth debating this with you. You simply make things up. There was nothing wrong with Smith's defense, just as there has been nothing wrong with his defense all year (apart from in your head). The stats suggest he made 8/9 tackles - an excellent defensive display be any halfbacks standard!

Its intresting how Kerr Barlow stops someone dead in their tracks and even dominates the tackle yet Smith puts his hands on someone gets dragged along like a raggedy anne doll and its put down as a tackle thats where the difference lies in our heads i suspect. Your appreciation of a tackle is different to mine. Sometimes they say stats dont lie.... in this case they do.

To say Smith has ever made an excellent defensive display is just laughable.

I find it pretty amusing you highlighted the only bit of my post that is up for debate so im assuming you want to debate the subject..... The rest of it is fact.


Also if Smartcooky or somebody with the time could give a rundown of who Fofana broke tackles against that would settle that other arguement pretty smartly. It certainly wasnt just Nonu although he may have been the main contributor.

 

[smartcooky]

Fofana beat five defenders, As near as I can recall without watching the whole game again, four of them were Nonu and one was Dagg

Ben Smith made 8 tackles from 8 attempts.

...and for those who want to still criticise Dagg, he made 14 runs for 106 metres; almost 1/3 of the AB's total running metres (326), more than any other player and more than twice that made by the next best player, Ben Smith with 47 metres from nine runs. Dagg also beat four defenders and got two breakdown turnovers.

 

[Big Ewis]

I think in such a game, it's very interesting to look at the stats. We'll find often France is superior, which is more power to the All-Blacks because it means with limited means and opportunities they still managed an extra try and hence the 7 point victory:
some interesting lines:

(order: France then NZ)
- 129 passes vs 124
- 130 runs vs 102
- 342m with ball vs 326
- Possession: 61% 39% (70/30 in 1stH)
- Territory: 62% 38%
- Clean breaks: 5 vs 2
- Defenders beaten: 26 vs 10
- Offloads: 18 vs 2
(this one's big)
- Rucks won: 88 from 89 for 99% vs 52 from 55 for 95%
- Turnovers conceded: 12 vs 11
- Tackles made(missed): 78(10) vs 141(26)
- Tackles success rate: 89% vs 84%
- Penalties(freekick): 7(0) vs 12(1)

We also had the upper hand statistically in the scrums, but who cares that's what lost us the game ultimately.

Simple deductions:
* The rucks are usually an area where the Blacks make sure they reign supreme. We actually had a hefty upper hand here. We did concede one more TO though, while still making 11 ourselves.
* We're usually committing stupid mistakes and the Blacks disciplined as church choir boys. Big difference in our favor here.
* Possession and territory, especially in the first half, has been substantially to our advantage. In terms of passes made/meters made/defenders beaten/offloads...etc we have a big advantage, and yet we only scored one try. Big props to NZ, they're amazing.

 

[SelimNiai]

I think in such a game, it's very interesting to look at the stats. We'll find often France is superior, which is more power to the All-Blacks because it means with limited means and opportunities they still managed an extra try and hence the 7 point victory:
some interesting lines:

(order: France then NZ)
- 129 passes vs 124
- 130 runs vs 102
- 342m with ball vs 326
- Possession: 61% 39% (70/30 in 1stH)
- Territory: 62% 38%
- Clean breaks: 5 vs 2
- Defenders beaten: 26 vs 10
- Offloads: 18 vs 2
(this one's big)
- Rucks won: 88 from 89 for 99% vs 52 from 55 for 95%
- Turnovers conceded: 12 vs 11
- Tackles made(missed): 78(10) vs 141(26)
- Tackles success rate: 89% vs 84%
- Penalties(freekick): 7(0) vs 12(1)

We also had the upper hand statistically in the scrums, but who cares that's what lost us the game ultimately.

Simple deductions:
* The rucks are usually an area where the Blacks make sure they reign supreme. We actually had a hefty upper hand here. We did concede one more TO though, while still making 11 ourselves.
* We're usually committing stupid mistakes and the Blacks disciplined as church choir boys. Big difference in our favor here.
* Possession and territory, especially in the first half, has been substantially to our advantage. In terms of passes made/meters made/defenders beaten/offloads...etc we have a big advantage, and yet we only scored one try. Big props to NZ, they're amazing.

That sounds so familiar.

 

[Darwin]

Its intresting how Kerr Barlow stops someone dead in their tracks and even dominates the tackle yet Smith puts his hands on someone gets dragged along like a raggedy anne doll and its put down as a tackle thats where the difference lies in our heads i suspect. Your appreciation of a tackle is different to mine. Sometimes they say stats dont lie.... in this case they do.

That would be a good point. If it had some semblance of truth. Smith tackles low and generally stops players in their tracks. He doesn't get dragged anywhere. Here is a link to the full match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_XlmursbU. Feel free to point out any times Smith gets "dragged along like a raggedy doll"

I find it pretty amusing you highlighted the only bit of my post that is up for debate so im assuming you want to debate the subject..... The rest of it is fact.

Yes, I only highlighted the text that was up for debate I highlight specific text to show I'm addressing specific points in your post. It doesn't mean that I think everything else in your post if fact. You hate Aaron Smith. We get it. There is no need to turn every thread into a "Aaron Smith is ****" thread

Also if Smartcooky or somebody with the time could give a rundown of who Fofana broke tackles against that would settle that other arguement pretty smartly. It certainly wasnt just Nonu although he may have been the main contributor.

The full video is linked above. If you look at around around 30:15 watch Nonu miss two tackles in less than 20 seconds, neither of them on Fofona (first on Tales, then on Medard). Both were tackles he should have made, and neither were on the 'unstoppable' Fofona.....

 

[Big Ewis]

That sounds so familiar.

yop...story of France 2013 so far.

 

[wertas]

If France looses to South Africa, I think Saint-Andre should be fired based on results this year.

Just saw a game and a few my comments. Referee was quite poor, to be honest. Also, the turf was absolutely pathetic and France probably lost because of it in the end. Don't understand new scrum laws or referee left his balls in the changing room. Scrum should be referred more strictly and if someone starts pushing before call, free-kick or penalty. No reset. As we are coming back to good old days when a lot of time was wasted on scrums. 4min of scrum in the end? Cmon.

NINETH half-back combination under Saint-Andre. I think even Lievremont has not managed to have so much in his times. And if Tales is the best what France could have at fly-half... he was constantly standing too deep and in the attack they lacked momentum. Also, unbalanced back-row. Dusatoir, Parra, Fofana and Dulin probably were stand out players.

 

[Big Ewis]

I disagree. Tales is just fine, it's just a bit of a shame we've picked him up so late, I hadn't realized this but he's already 29. But he's sound on defense, has a good kicking game, and he can conduct some plays alright.

As for Saint-André, it's a bit strange, we're scoring way less tries since he came on. On one hand, teams have tightened their defenses tremendously this year in particular, I mean the 2013 6N had just impenetrable sides. But France has really struggled big time with its try-scoring, and it's not for a lack of quality passing and intelligent navigation through defensive weaknesses. We also have some large ball carriers, and some fast legs...

But it seems France has gone through a complete rebuild without even saying it, our style has changed a lot in the past year alone. I'm pretty happy for the future though, the pieces are coming together and have already shown they can gel well, in little preparation time too.
Now we honestly just need that little extra that puts us on top to actually win the games. We needed so little to beat Italy, Wales and England, and then NZ in test 1 and 3 and now this one...but we're getting there, as Dusautoir said it: "we're maturing". And honestly, I'm happy because this is only preparation, the RWC is in some time still.

 

[SelimNiai]

yop...story of France 2013 so far.

Not just France, for the most part its what Wales were saying after our game and generally after any NH vs SH game