EOYT: England vs South Africa, 24/11/2012

[Draggs]

Lambie was steady, kicked well for goal.
I think you'll find I normally don't have an issue with Steyn, except when his boot goes to ****. When on form 2009/10, he can be a fine player. I just feel he is limited and there are more talented players who can do more with that backline.

Pienaar is ****. Always said it, always will. Plays well for club, but not international class.

 

[Joseph14]

Etzebeth trying to twist Tom Woods head off in that maul.

He's really doing his best to fill the void left by Botha and Burger, by acting an absolute dick.

He can try all he likes, he isn't half the beast some seem to think he is.

 

[j'nuh]

It's so frustrating. I'm happy that the forwards are being improved under Lancaster. Steffon Armitage is a glaring omission, and I hope I don't have to see Marler or Botha in an England shirt for a while, but nearly all of the key players are being picked in the squad.

But the backline is a travesty. I'm not sure who to blame for this, so I'll blame the coaching team collectively. It needs a complete restructuring in selections and tactics. I'm a fan of Tuilagi, but I really want him to be dropped and told to work on his vision and reading of the game. England will be waiting for him - he has time on his side, and a lot of talent. But he's in danger of becoming a very good one-dimensional battering ram, without the complete skill set to become the player he should develop into. I don't see a place for him in the centers, and if he isn't up to the challenge of trying to read the game better, I think he should consider a position change to the wing.

Other than that, only Goode can come out of the England backline with his head up. With some imagination in the backline, this England team could be special imo. We have the players to do this - it's just a question of whether the coaching staff are up to it.

 

[Nobblynick]

The Robshaw call is irrelevant. Yet again England were chasing a game they could have been winning and to be honest, looked to have no chance of scoring a try, so it wasn't an awful call.

Equally Botha should have left the ball at the end but is not down to one decision. If Ben Youngs had dropped on the ball rather than hacking it straight at a saffa, which led to a try then things would also be different. You can't blame him for that either.

It's a far more deep rooted problem and its easy to blame players decisions at the end of a game when your team is losing. You have to ask yourself why they are losing in the first place

 

[Tony Manx]

Sooooooooooooo predictable!!!

Picking Brown - mistake! A full back on the win, he hardly had to catch one high ball (why he was selected) but his being out of the position a wing would have taken cost a try when Tuilagi intercepted. He was not helped by Ashton not drawing his man and passing very badly but Brown was not in the right place.

Picking Youngs - mistake! His passing was too low or too high even when he did actually pass with speed. He fly hacked in a melee in his own 22 when he should have dropped on the ball for a clearance and that cost a try, His kicking was absolutely clueless and he was on the pitch 62 minutes too long.

Picking Barritt/Tuilangi combo - mistake! No possible attacking flair between them other than bish bash bosh which the Boks handled with ease.

Picking Farrell as reserve 10 - mistake! He was quite horrible when forced to come on for the injured Flood.

Picking Corbs - mistake! Not match fit and only made too look reasonable by some quite extraoridnary leniency from Owens.

Picking Robshaw - half mistake! Not sure who could have done much better but as Captain....not again please!

England were never really in it once Flood missed his two kicks and the score went to 6-9 as the Boks sat back and waited for something from England to come...it did not!! What did come they easily handled and when they could not Loouw gave away a penalty on the 22 with no cost other than the 3 points.

Not sure where the English team is going but it ain't forward when it cannot beat the Aussie and Boks second teams. If I were NZ, i would save most of my front line players and give the reserves a run out against this inept squad next week!!

I think Ownes is quite a good ref. However, if I was a Bok, I would wonder WTF!!

 

[racingmetrofan]

The Robshaw call is irrelevant. Yet again England were chasing a game they could have been winning and to be honest, looked to have no chance of scoring a try, so it wasn't an awful call.

Equally Botha should have left the ball at the end but is not down to one decision. If Ben Youngs had dropped on the ball rather than hacking it straight at a saffa, which led to a try then things would also be different. You can't blame him for that either.

It's a far more deep rooted problem and its easy to blame players decisions at the end of a game when your team is losing. You have to ask yourself why they are losing in the first place

The decision is relevant. Pretty much every successful sporting team operates on marginal gains and maximum control - so ensuring that every call you do etc is the right one. Not many people are going to go through the game picking out every wrong call, but if you can't make the right one at the very end, then there is clearly a problem. The thing is Robshaw has a history of making bad calls in pressure situations. If your captain makes bad calls then that is one of the first things that needs to come under scrutiny. He knew it was the wrong call because he even asked the ref if he could change his decision!!!!

And you can blame Youngs for his hack, because the first thing you are taught in age grade rugby is that if the ball is loose, DROP ON THE BALL! Quite a few times England players made some stupid attempts to one handed flick a loose ball to other players, or give hospital passes, or even kick it. Its stopping doing things like that that gives you the edge needed to win.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm no Farrell or Youngs fan, but they had better games than I expected - better than either of their rivals (not just this game but all three, really), which is a shame as I'm normally a big Flood/Care fan!

Think Care just didn't have a great series, but is a quality #9 - Burns is a step up from Farrell/Flood at the moment though. Hopefully he comes in for the ABs game, just so we can get a look at him before the Six Nations (where he probably won't even make the EPS as I can't see Flood or Farrell being left out).
We don't have a chance of beating the ABs so we might as well ring the changes, and try and play some rugby with nothing to lose.

 

[j-dawg]

It really isn't that hard. 'We're building for the next world cup' What team ever won a world cup just talking about it? Winning is a habit, you start winning and you can win with a tampered team. The all blacks lost Dan Carter in the world cup and still kept on winning, win regularly and it's hard to stop.

We need the best team possible out there and that, my fellow rugby chums, isn't it. There are players in France sticking their hands up, is it a wonder why there are players over there? The French league is developing our players better than the Aviva, the England coaching set up can take advantage of this instead of picking sides. Steffon 'put him in Stue' Armitage is turning into a world class openside, Andrew 'Stay on the bench, Jenkins' Sheridan is enjoying the form of his life.

If our backs arent up for the job its time to stick it in the forwards and just let them tackle.
Amen.



oh and Robshaws decision was unforgiveably wrong. Make decisions on a case by case basis not on what 'The Sun' or some bloody journo thinks.

 

[j'nuh]

I'm no Farrell or Youngs fan, but they had better games than I expected - better than either of their rivals (not just this game but all three, really), which is a shame as I'm normally a big Flood/Care fan!

Think Care just didn't have a great series, but is a quality #9 - Burns is a step up from Farrell/Flood at the moment though. Hopefully he comes in for the ABs game, just so we can get a look at him before the Six Nations (where he probably won't even make the EPS as I can't see Flood or Farrell being left out).
We don't have a chance of beating the ABs so we might as well ring the changes, and try and play some rugby with nothing to lose.

Burns comes in.
ABs put 50 points on us.
Burns goes out.

 

[Big Ewis]

nonsense !! We're all Ferrell fans here ! Why, who can honestly say they're not a fan of Hitchcock's work !



Can't wait to watch the full match and look for one of those...

 

[Sker]

Well, he got the ball a couple of times and the only bad thing he did was when he was tackled in the second half (after Pienaar passes in the tackle).

Lambie is more versatile and consistent than Steyn. I am not saying he was playing out of his skin or had a magnificent day, but he has been the best fly-half this year in the Bok team.

cough, Goosen, cough



Didn't get to watch the game, had to go to Hermanus for a diabetic function. Sounds like I didn't miss much!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Goosen played a good 20 minutes against the All Blacks, that's it.

 

[Nobblynick]

The decision is relevant. Pretty much every successful sporting team operates on marginal gains and maximum control - so ensuring that every call you do etc is the right one. Not many people are going to go through the game picking out every wrong call, but if you can't make the right one at the very end, then there is clearly a problem. The thing is Robshaw has a history of making bad calls in pressure situations. If your captain makes bad calls then that is one of the first things that needs to come under scrutiny. He knew it was the wrong call because he even asked the ref if he could change his decision!!!!

And you can blame Youngs for his hack, because the first thing you are taught in age grade rugby is that if the ball is loose, DROP ON THE BALL! Quite a few times England players made some stupid attempts to one handed flick a loose ball to other players, or give hospital passes, or even kick it. Its stopping doing things like that that gives you the edge needed to win.

Apologies for not putting my point across well, but I agree that Youngs should have dropped on the ball. My 5 year old son knows that. For once i tried to put my anti Youngs hatred behind me! My point is that had he done that England might have won; had Robshaw gone for the try (which I still think we had a snowball in hell's chance of scoring) we might have won; Had Botha left the ball on that restart we might have won; If Ben Youngs could pass we might have won; Had Toby Flood not missed his kicks we might (actually would) have won.

If we really have to play the 'what if' game after every test then there is a problem, especially if it comes down to one decision albeit right or wrong.

Bottom line is, we did not have 'maximum control' in the game. If we did, marginal gains become far less important.

 

[SelimNiai]

So a cynical view:

Blame everyone but the Quins player

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Which Quins player would you blame for the try?
The Tiger that hacked it or the Saint that knocked it forward when trying to gather it?

 

[Peat]

One thing that did stand out is the pack genuinely looked good. Yes, there were some arsey moments from them as individuals, and Youngs needs to keep working on his throwing, but as an 8 is looked solid - in the second half at least.

If we can keep that going, the future looks semi-bright. Will be interesting to see how they go against New Zealand.

 

[SpanishBob]

You can't choose as a captain a man with only one cap. And that's what Lancaster did. Today Robshaw just proved him wrong. He is not ready for the job, not at all. Today's game was vital for England and for its future with the home World Cup in mind. Such a big mistake; England needs a new captain. Robshaw could be fine in a couple of years, not now.

 

[SomeOke]

Goosen played a good 20 minutes against the All Blacks, that's it.

To be fair I'm not sure any of our fly-halves have really put their foot forward as the obvious choice.

Considering 3 of the 4 realistic options (and who cares about Morne anyway) are all 22 or younger, we need a bit of time to be certain.
Hopefully over the next couple years someone will put there hand up as being obviously ahead of the pack so we can settle on someone, and to be honest I do feel like Goosen has the best shot, purely because he has more raw talent and a more complete set of skills than the other two.

For what it's worth I take back what I said about Kruger, I watched him very closely this game after I started to build up a bit of hate for him but he's definitely international class and we're just lucky that after losing Matfield, Botha and Russow we still have the class that we do in the second row, our line-outs are beastly. Etzebeth continues to be a God among mortals and anyone who disagrees is a blasphemer.

I wouldn't change a thing in our loose trio. I think it was either Eze or Draggs who said they would swap Alberts for Coetze and I can't help but think that may be a little bit of a "domestic" opinion.
Marcel is and has been an amazing player both for the Sharks and the Bokke and Alberts had a very shakey season for the Sharks (particularly at the beginning of the year) but when he's on form and performing like he always has for SA I do feel he offers more. Particularly as ball carrier but also as a truly brutal tackler and even an occasional line-out jumper. Marcel is definitely an option for the near future but I certainly don't disagree with the decision to start Alberts, I can't remember the last time he hasn't performed in a Springbok jersey.

Scrums were a shambles but I am going to blame the ref for that. Being a tight head in the scrums is challenging at the best of times, and it's virtually impossible when the referee doesn't enforce straight scrumming.

As for the back-line I don't really have much to say. I'd like to see us play with the ball more but was this really the game for it?

Personally after the up and down season we have I'm just going to thank my lucky stars we came out of this tour unscathed.

 

[SelimNiai]

Which Quins player would you blame for the try?
The Tiger that hacked it or the Saint that knocked it forward when trying to gather it?

Easy blame a B**h player

Seems good a reason as any

 

[Draggs]

Springbok Alberts and Shark Alberts are very different players.
He puts in a good shift for the Boks, but he is often agonising for us. I am not sure about Coetzee, I don't think 'mad flanker who is everywhere' really has a great deal of use in today's game. He will, of course, mature.
To say that Lambie is better/worse/potato than Goosen would be unwise. They have played a handful of matches for the Springboks and both suffered time out injured.