[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

[Jaguares]

Argentina:

1- Marcos Ayerza
2- Eusebio Guiñazú
3- Maximiliano Bustos
4- Mariano Galarza
5- Patricio Albacete
6- Pablo Matera
7- Julio Farías Cabello
8- Juan Manuel Leguizamón (Capitán)
9- Tomás Cubelli
10- Nicolás Sánchez
11- Juan Imhoff
12- Santiago Fernández
13 - Marcelo Bosch
14- Horacio Agulla
15- Lucas González Amorosino

Substitutes:

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez (2 tests - 0 points)
17- Nahuel Lobo (7 tests - 0 points)
18- Juan Pablo Orlandi (14 tests - 0 points)
19- Manuel Carizza (38 tests - 5 points)
20- Benjamín Macome (15 tests - 10 points)
21- Martín Landajo (24 tests - 10 points)
22- Gonzalo Tiesi (37 tests - 40 points)
23- Santiago Cordero (0 tests)

Head Coach: Daniel Hourcade.

 

[Prestwick]

Years in Union is irrelevant compared to actual experience in the international arena. If that was the case then lets go pick an under 19 England center and replace Tompkins because, hey, he's played Union for longer than Tompkins has.

I'll say it again, years playing Union is nothing and experience in international caps is everything. I find it farcical to think that playing the ABs at home is apparently "fairly meaningless" especially if the ABs exploit a green Wade and steamroller us, shredding England's nerves again so soon after Cardiff. Perfect preparation for the Six Nations that is.

You may dismiss bedding him in on a tour but then I think thats the best time to do it. Woodward's "tour of hell" made a lot of men out of boys back then and we had the perfect chance to see who could sink or swim. We could accept that happening thousands of miles away but to trying it so close to home at HQ is just asking for mockery.

Look, I agree, Wade should start eventually but it needs to happen at the appropriate time and chucking him in against the best team in the world looking to layeth the almighty smacketh down against an England that made them look extremely ordinary 12 months ago isn't the best time to it. On the other hand, throwing Wade into the 1st test against the ABs next Summer and seeing if he rises to the challenge is far more preferable.

 

[McTallshort]

Prestwick. are you honestly saying Ashton should be in the England squad?

Also regards the tour of hell, it ended lots of international careers prematurely which resulted in a lack of talent after the 2003 world cup team retired.

 

[Prestwick]

Prestwick. are you honestly saying Ashton should be in the England squad?

Also regards the tour of hell, it ended lots of international careers prematurely which resulted in a lack of talent after the 2003 world cup team retired.

I'm saying that the best players need to be in there. I'd rather have David Strettle in there in Ashton's place for example. We need to be combining form with experience.

 

[Patchey]

I'd argue is exactly the time you want Wade playing. IF Ashton really is the reliable, experiences option then he will gain very little from the Argentina game compared to Wade who needs to start being introduced to bigger games. Running on the theory that Ashton is the best option for the All Black Lancaster should simply tell him, 'I trust you to do a job in two weeks time, I want to give Wade some more experience, go have a few beers in the stands and rest up for training on Monday'.

Of course if, like me, you think Ashton shouldn't start against the All Blacks then he should be dropped now.

 

[Prestwick]

I definitely think he should be dropped to at worst (in the fans case) the bench and at best released to his club. I'd rather have a more experienced option in his place to be honest.

 

[psychic duck]

Prestwick. are you honestly saying Ashton should be in the England squad?

Also regards the tour of hell, it ended lots of international careers prematurely which resulted in a lack of talent after the 2003 world cup team retired.

No it didn't. It ended international careers of duds who were never going to make it. Whereas Wilkinson, Lewsey and Vickery all managed fine after. I don't see how that tour had much relevance to the talent England had in 2004.

 

[Peat]

IF Ashton really is the reliable, experiences option then he will gain very little from the Argentina game compared to Wade who needs to start being introduced to bigger games. Running on the theory that Ashton is the best option for the All Black Lancaster should simply tell him, 'I trust you to do a job in two weeks time, I want to give Wade some more experience, go have a few beers in the stands and rest up for training on Monday'.

I cannot disagree more. This is a very raw backline and the entire unit needs to play as one in both games. If we are serious about winning and giving players the best chance to shine and build confidence then there can be no rotation at this juncture in the backline at least.

Prestwick does have something of a point. This isn't really the ideal time to be playing Wade. Unsettled team, difficult games. But then, there is no ideal time. Its never a good time. At least he is on form and will start on a *relatively* easy game. But yeah, ideally you'd have things far more settled.

However, while acknowledging his logic, I just want Ashton dropped. Enough is enough. He does not offer enough in attack, he does not offer enough in defence. Folau is a beast, sure, but he didn't beat Ashton that way. He beat Ashton because he was too narrow and tracked the wrong runner and got nowhere near him. Which might be ok if it wasn't another on a long list of black marks. Let him be gone God, please let him be gone. God only knows what they see in him.

At which point, Wade is the next taxi off the rank. Go for it. It is the lesser of two evils and possibly a great blessing.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Prestwick: I do mean this genuinely, and not in a cheap way. But you can't fail to have noticed that you are the only person on this board who wants Ashton to stay (and you even suggest Strettle as a possible replacement).
Is it just coincidence that you are also the only Sarries fan here?

People were using the "blood him on the summer tour" argument against Wade in the 6n and guess what? They did, and he ****ing smashed it... unlike one Mr Strettle.

 

[Patchey]

I cannot disagree more. This is a very raw backline and the entire unit needs to play as one in both games. If we are serious about winning and giving players the best chance to shine and build confidence then there can be no rotation at this juncture in the backline at least.

Prestwick does have something of a point. This isn't really the ideal time to be playing Wade. Unsettled team, difficult games. But then, there is no ideal time. Its never a good time. At least he is on form and will start on a *relatively* easy game. But yeah, ideally you'd have things far more settled.

However, while acknowledging his logic, I just want Ashton dropped. Enough is enough. He does not offer enough in attack, he does not offer enough in defence. Folau is a beast, sure, but he didn't beat Ashton that way. He beat Ashton because he was too narrow and tracked the wrong runner and got nowhere near him. Which might be ok if it wasn't another on a long list of black marks. Let him be gone God, please let him be gone. God only knows what they see in him.

At which point, Wade is the next taxi off the rank. Go for it. It is the lesser of two evils and possibly a great blessing.

Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting that is what should happen. I totally agree that the same team should start against Argentina and against NZ. I was offering that as a hypothetic argument for playing Wade this week even if you think Ashton is better. Basically I just Wade to start.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say this is an ideal time to let Wade into the side. If anything the fact we are facing the ABs is even more reason. Once you've faced them, there is little more that you haven't experienced. As these games don't amount to much at all, I'd rather we get the ball rolling now. Let them make mistakes in these games so come the 6N they are a bit more settled. If we don't put Wade in now then he won't get in in the 6N and that will be a year of wasted potential right there whilst Ashton stays on another year. He's not going to improve and has been given countless chances. We need to be developing the young players NOW and getting the players we want in the final team now. It's madness to retain a player you know you will want to drop later.

 

[Patchey]

I just think of how the All Blacks started Tom Taylor at 10 against South Africa this year. They could have gone for a more experienced option in Colin Slade, IMO there isn't a real difference in quality between the two and I prefer Slade as a player. But they went for the younger, more inexperienced player and gambled that he'd raise his game.

Why can't we apply the same logic here?

 

[Aristodemus]

I think the Argentina game is perfect for Wade, if we can get some good ball to him he will show his worth. I'm not certain he is the long term answer but he deserves his shot, especially in light of Ashton and his form over the last year.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

does anyone know the england squad for the game

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

does anyone know the england squad for the game

I believe it will be announced tommorow.

 

[Peat]

Patchey - The difference is the Kiwis had more quality to put around a rookie. They could make it a fair deal easier for them. But, yeah, here's hoping.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I believe it will be announced tommorow.

Yep at 10.45am; same time as last week.

http://www.rfu.com/qbeinternationals

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Forgetting last year's result which we have to because it was an anomaly, players with the pure magical ability of Wade are the only chance in hell we have of beating New Zealand. Slow and steady/playing it safe will not win games against New Zealand. Also, the All Blacks WILL score tries against you no matter what; I just remember how easily they retorted with those early second half tries last year. It seems to me that you've got to have some firepower of your own, and to be honest without Tuilagi, where on earth else is that going to come from?

On the other hand, I can concede the argument that it's not about just one game, but about building the right team to win each game.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I can't see England not winning here. And handsomely so if they really go look for the points.

 

[Crapspray]

Tom Youngs and Joe Launchbury won their fourth caps each when they played against the All Blacks last year; it didn't seem to affect them too much. Wade would be winning his third if he plays this weekend.

The choice at lock last year was between Launchbury, Palmer, and Botha. It was an easy one to make: Talent and form are far better than experience.