England's back line

[goodNumber10]

It does, and I'd meant to acknowledge that might be what you meant and add a counterpoint to that, but was making the post before work and was in a rush.

And yes, you can score tries if your 10 isn't doing a great deal, but it's not ideal. It would be like, I dunno, picking a no 7 who's not much of a breakdown expert and support runner (oh wait). You can make it work, but if offered the choice, you'd do things the orthodox way.



Reliable wins out for obvious reasons but I don't see Farrell vs Burns/Ford as reliable vs creative. I see it as proven vs unproven. At peak performance, both Burns and Ford are pretty reliable game runners and kickers. Their defence mightn't be as reliable as Farrell's but a lot of the time it works. Burns and Ford are players that I think can be reliable and creative, which is the dream fly-half. Obviously, tomorrow, proven = reliable = Farrell starting... but we've got a year to try things and for players to make their case. I think that Burns and Ford both have higher ceilings as fly-halves and are in a position where it's not inconceivable that they could be fulfilling enough of that to be better players than Farrell this time next year.

And that is why I don't want to think Farrell of a nailed on.

good post mate.

i guess we'll have to wait and see, but Burns and Ford, and that other chap Olly is always on about, pressuring Fazlet is only going to be good for the game.

Let's see how Burns gets on at Leicester . If he gets off to a flyer and has a cracking season I think he's in with a shout of displacing Faz . I've heard rumours Cipriani is going to quins too .

i'd be surprised with that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That Quins rumour is from the sale fan forum which was then picked up by a few twitter pages/blogs from there.
There nothing in it other than "Evans is getting on a bit, maybe they'll come knocking for Danny".

 

[ratsapprentice]

...and that moving back to West London is probably quite a big draw for the guy.

 

[goodNumber10]

...and that moving back to West London is probably quite a big draw for the guy.

lord knows why, it's a soul less dump

**FLAME ON!***

 

[Maverick1987]

That Quins rumour is from the sale fan forum which was then picked up by a few twitter pages/blogs from there.
There nothing in it other than "Evans is getting on a bit, maybe they'll come knocking for Danny".

Fair enough . It was on Twitter that I actually saw it so there we go !

 

[glawsfan]

If Henry Trinder has a strong season and really kicks on I can see him getting involved. Lancaster seems to favour him he was due to be starting 13 in the Autumn last year if it wasn't for injury and despite having an inconsistent season still ended up going to NZ. He has the attacking game and hopefully with our new setup they can improve him defensively which is his obvious weakness at the moment. Also playing alongside Twelvetrees wont do him any harm.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Tuilagi is the only shoe in for me.
Brown had an awesome domestic season and 6 Nations but he looked ordinary in New Zealand, dropping high balls and making mistakes.
I thought Foden looked more cohesive, hungry and confident.
I wonder if it was too much of a season extension for Brown.
Farrell also looks like he's having confidence issues.
The kid is talented and he will bounce back but for me Danny Cipriani didn't put a foot wrong over in NZ it's a shame he didn't get more playing time. Burns looked very good too.
Marland Yarde was wonderful on attack but his hands, positioning and defence were not always international quality.
Twelvetrees looked under cooked.
Eastmond? the poor bugger...
Care will be fine and if it keeps Youngs keen then all the better.
Whats happened to Delon Armitage?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't doubt for a second that, for Brown and Care, their drop in form was due to the extension to a long season - however the worrying part is that the World Cup is later than the June tours, so it'll be an even longer season.
I know that there's a longer break in games between seasons end and world cups start, but they'll go straight into a RWC pre-season, which'll be no joke.

Hopefully it's unfounded, as if those two are on top form they're two really key players.

 

[Big Ewis]

I don't doubt for a second that, for Brown and Care, their drop in form was due to the extension to a long season - however the worrying part is that the World Cup is later than the June tours, so it'll be an even longer season.
I know that there's a longer break in games between seasons end and world cups start, but they'll go straight into a RWC pre-season, which'll be no joke.

Hopefully it's unfounded, as if those two are on top form they're two really key players.

I agree with that. I've seen Brown play for the Quins a bit, but I've especially followed him closely as he was wearing country colors, and being French I understand what a long season can do to your players, and though this was the toughest place to play in as England challenged the AB in NZ three straight times, I had indeed had a hard time recognizing this particularly gifted player. I understand SH ppl would find this to be an excuse, but trust me, Top 14 and Prem players play A LOT.
Check out those stats:

Mike Brown
24 matches, 24 starts = 1817 minutes de jeu avec les Harlequins
11 matches, 11 starts = 873 minutes de jeu avec le XV de la Rose
Total = 2690 minutes.

/

Brice Dulin
22 matches, 20 starts = 1580 minutes de jeu avec Castres
11 matches, 10 starts = 826 minutes de jeu avec les Bleus
Total = 2406 minutes.

And Brice Dulin played quite a bit this year himself. Plus those guys are fullbacks, they play a full 80 most of the time.

Tuilagi is the only shoe in for me.
Brown had an awesome domestic season and 6 Nations but he looked ordinary in New Zealand, dropping high balls and making mistakes.
I thought Foden looked more cohesive, hungry and confident.
I wonder if it was too much of a season extension for Brown.
Farrell also looks like he's having confidence issues.
The kid is talented and he will bounce back but for me Danny Cipriani didn't put a foot wrong over in NZ it's a shame he didn't get more playing time. Burns looked very good too.
Marland Yarde was wonderful on attack but his hands, positioning and defence were not always international quality.
Twelvetrees looked under cooked.
Eastmond? the poor bugger...
Care will be fine and if it keeps Youngs keen then all the better.
Whats happened to Delon Armitage?

I guess you could say Ben was conFodent indeed, and I apologize for that. Sorry...really sorry..
Oh and, the Armitages are French now, but thank you for thinking about them. Yep, French...

 

[The Jones Boy]

The rest of the world has a secret weapon against France, it's Phillipe Saint Andre.

I heard Steffon wanted to play for France but not Delon. On their day they are both awesome players.

I don't have any problem with the English players suffering from a long season made too long by end of season International commitments.
The SH sides do it every year during the autumn tests.
Maybe thats the key for England. Instead of going to NZ once every 4 years, go there every year until their back line hardens up and gets to grips with the game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Weirdly, despite Delon being a major prat, I get the impression he'd be majorly loyal and wouldn't turn his back on his country.

 

[Big Ewis]

The rest of the world has a secret weapon against France, it's Phillipe Saint Andre.

I heard Steffon wanted to play for France but not Delon. On their day they are both awesome players.

I don't have any problem with the English players suffering from a long season made too long by end of season International commitments.
The SH sides do it every year during the autumn tests.
Maybe thats the key for England. Instead of going to NZ once every 4 years, go there every year until their back line hardens up and gets to grips with the game.

yeah but they don't play forty frukkin' games a year. Makes a small difference after accumulation. And yes, haha, well put..."PSA is the world's secret weapon against France", only thing I'd change in there is I'd remove the word "secret".
And about England hardening up, they did make a game out of those first two tests, including the first one when they had 1/3 of their first team at disposal. They looked hardened enough to me, and that backline specifically is causing teams problems. They're no longer the England squad I so fondly criticized just some months ago, that backline can really play.

Weirdly, despite Delon being a major prat, I get the impression he'd be majorly loyal and wouldn't turn his back on his country.

oooohh, big insult to Steffon Armitage there...dude, they're French okay, just,...deal with it.

 

[The Jones Boy]

The first test England did play very well, and it wasn't their first string team. Nigel Owens kept the AB's in the game but England should have won that match.
However the AB's were missing certain players of unreplaceable calibre and they had not played together for a whopping great 6 months.
I was gob smacked to find out the NZRFU had not organised a warm up game against ... oh I don't know, the Pitcairn islanders invitational eleven, as a warm up/prelude to taking on England.
The second test saw England get their 1st string choice players back and they were competitive and the AB's were better (they could not have been worse than the first test) but still looked a little sleepy, rusty and needing to blow more of the cobwebs away.
The third test the AB's were back in the groove and looking to do the damage, and it was done, in style.

 

[Big Ewis]

The first test England did play very well, and it wasn't their first string team. Nigel Owens kept the AB's in the game but England should have won that match.
However the AB's were missing certain players of unreplaceable calibre and they had not played together for a whopping great 6 months.
I was gob smacked to find out the NZRFU had not organised a warm up game against ... oh I don't know, the Pitcairn islanders invitational eleven, as a warm up/prelude to taking on England.
The second test saw England get their 1st string choice players back and they were competitive and the AB's were better (they could not have been worse than the first test) but still looked a little sleepy, rusty and needing to blow more of the cobwebs away.
The third test the AB's were back in the groove and looking to do the damage, and it was done, in style.

yeah yeah, sure...as long as we all agree that Steffon and Delon Armitage are French. And Jonny Wilkinson too...and Andrew Sheridan, a little..

 

[Geordie]

Assuming Manu Tuilagi is nailed on at 13...and you would imagine at the moment that Farrell is at 10 (but Ford, Burns and Cips are all challenging).....

What would your thoughts be on the 12 spot?

Eastmond showed real potential in the 1st test but struggled as the whole team did in the 3rd one.
Burrell had a blinding 6n but looked jaded in NZ
Twelvetrees has the skills and raw materials but is just living on that at the moment. He's shown me nothing that is proof he is capable of nailing that 12 spot.

Others like HIll at Exeter, Devoto at Bath etc are need to continue with their clubs.

 

[Peat]

I feel that if you play Farrell at 10 and Tuilagi at 13 you want a guy with real distribution and playmaking skills at 12. Farrell benefits from the lessened responsibility and the added uncertainty in the opposition defence; the threat of the wide ball gives Tuilagi more room; the wingers are more likely to see the ball!

To me that means a choice between Twelvetrees and Eastmond. I don't think Burrell has the ball skills and vision to challenge there, I may be wrong. While I have doubts about both Twelvetrees and Eastmond, I do also believe in them as well. I feel that Twelvetrees has the lead due to having played well with Farrell before, but reckon Eastmond could be the better man. Right now I would pick whichever man has the better form leading into Autumn, which I'm expecting to be Twelvetrees, and would go with Twelvetrees' greater experience if there's a tie.

Devoto interests me going forwards. Hill, like Burrell, is a square object in a round hole for my money, and ideally needs to show ability in a 13 shirt to progress for England.

 

[goodNumber10]

Going to put the cat amongst the pigeons now.... I've been thinking I'd quite like to see Barritt given another run at 12.

 

[Peat]

Going to put the cat amongst the pigeons now.... I've been thinking I'd quite like to see Barritt given another run at 12.

You could have at least given your reasoning and spared me asking why...

 

[Tony Manx]

You could have at least given your reasoning and spared me asking why...

Cool head with a good rugby brain, good handling skill and an excellent defensive organiser.....

 

[goodNumber10]

You could have at least given your reasoning and spared me asking why...

No fun in that.

I don't think we are going to develop as an attacking force enough in the next 12 months, so I think for this World Cup his handling and distribution will suffice and he gets us to the gainlne even against defences that come and meet us.

Defence will win the cup, and he is the best defensive 12 in the NH. He is also very astute tactically and Farrell works well with a shot caller outside him, he also keeps a lid on Tuilagi.

So, while he might not be the best attacking 12 or whatever he is probably the most fully rounded 12.