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England's Argetine Adventure

Patchey

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So seeing as our Welsh brothers have had a thread to discuss/debate/argue about their 'non-Lions' team going to Japan I thought it was about time the English got a chance to do the same in regards to the tour to Argentina. With two tests against the Pumas and two mid-week games I guess Lancaster is going to take a 30+ man squad like he did to South Africa. He has also hinted than a number of established players will not be taken, regardless of their Lions status, so that some other players, Saxons or otherwise, get a look in.

My best guess at the match day squad is something like,

1. M. Vunipola
2. Hartley*
3. D. Wilson
4. C. Lawes
5. C. Clerk
6. T. Johnson
7. M. Kvesic
8. B. Vunipola

9. D. Care*
10. F. Burns
11. C. Sharples
12. B. Twelvetrees
13. J.J.
14 J. May
15. B. Foden

16. J. Marler
17. D. Paice
18. ???
19. W. Fraiser
20. G. Robson
21. R. Wrigglesworth
22. G. Ford
23. E. Daly

(*Don't think these two will be Lions tourists)
I'd expect young players like Ferns, Eastmond and Yarde to be touring along with hopefully some older players like Tait and Varndel to be given a shot at showing whether they still have it. Obviously this is all a bit arbitrary as we don't know who is going with the Lions or who Lancaster is going to omit in favour of blooding some young talent. I've gone with the idea that players in the Saxons, especially those who were brought into the main England squad as injury cover (Daly for example) are most likely to fill the gaps in the match day squad.

Thoughts? I expect someone can do better.
 
My two cents, assuming Robshaw, Croft/Wood, Parling, Cole, Youngs snr, Youngs jnr, Farrell, and Tuilagi go down-under:

1. M. Vunipola*
2. D. Hartley (c)
3. D. Wilson
4. J. Launchbury
5. E. Slater
6. T. Wood/T. Croft
7. M. Kvesic
8. B. Morgan**
9. D. Care
10. F. Burns
11. J. May
12. B. Barritt***
13. J. Joseph
14. C. Wade
15. M. Brown

16. J. Marler
17. R. Webber
18. H. Thomas
19. C. Lawes
20. J. Haskell
21. J. Simpson/Wigglesworth -- In that order of preference.
22. T. Flood
23. E. Daly

* Corbisiero if fit, Vunipola dropping to bench.
** May go with Lions, in which case B. Vunipola.
***Barritt there to solidify the defence. Small chance he may go with the lions for the midweek side, or Lancaster may go for attack and pick Twelvetrees; which I wouldn't be opposed to.

Six new caps by my count. With relatively experienced players in Hartley, Haskell, Lawes, Flood, and Care to make sure they don't lose their heads. As much as there's been talk of blooding new players, I don't think Lancaster will throw in too many youngsters into the test side. Argentina are still a strong team (though I remember reading somewhere that they're going to be under-strength?) and his objective should, and most likely will be, to win both games. Fraser might be on the bench, but I think Haskell's experience will edge it. Thomas may not go after this weekend, but he was under Rowntree's wing during the Six Nations. Something similar happened with Marler in 2012, who started in South Africa. I can see some more fringe players brought into the Saxons for the midweek, with a Saxons-based side against the BaaBaas to see if anyone can make the jump up.

Feel free to tear it to bits.
 
Frustrating: it's a real chance for the likes of Burns and Twelvetrees, but neither are in the best of form. I bet they get picked, don't perform as well as they can, and are said to be "found out". Burns in particular needs patience - his kicking has been much worse since coming back from injury a while ago, but will be fine in time for next season.

I would go:

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Fraser (great chance for dual opensides)
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Burns
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Daly
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Buchanan
17. Marler (I think Corbisiero should be given the preseason to get fully fit and come back stronger in the Autumn)
18. Knight
19. Slater
20. Vunipola
21. Simpson
22. Joseph
23. Strettle
 
I'm not gonna bother with the 23, just the majority of the touring squad. And it's a mix of who I think will go and who I think should go.
Not everyone I have listed, I would like to go... and just because they aren't there doesn't mean I don't think they will.
People like Morgan, who might go with the Lions, but are an outside bet are left in, but people with a more realistic chance like Tom Wood, Parling are left out.

LH Prop: Alex Corbisiero, Mako Vunipola, Joe Marler
Hooker: Dylan Hartley, Tom Lindsay, Rob Webber
TH Prop: Davey Wilson... (can't think who else is actually deserving of international caps tbh)
Lock: Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Dave Attwood, Ed Slater
Blindside: Carl Fearns, James Haskell
Number 8: Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola
Openside: Matt Kvesic, Will Fraser
Scrum Half: Joe Simpson, Lee Dickson
Fly Half: Freddie Burns, George Ford, Toby Flood
Inside Center: Billy Twelvetrees, Brad Barritt
Outside Center: Jonathan Joseph, Joel Tomkins
Wing: Christian Wade, Jonny May
Full Back: Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Nick Abendanon

Depth at TH Prop is a real issue, Wilson has been going from strength to strength this season though, and he is by far the better scrummager and ball carrier when compared to Cole though.
We have a good set of Locks at the moment, the four I have listed are well balanced. Although admittedly none of them are lineout generals necessarily, they are all very good in the air.
I just hope that Robson and Kitchener aren't called up in favor of any of those guys, they haven't played anywhere near as well as those four have, but I think Lancaster wants to see them, unfortunately.
Carl Fearns is looking like a great all round prospect at 6, he was the outstanding player along with Tom Youngs in the midweek team in SA. I'd expect Haskell and possibly Johnson to tour too.
Morgan and Vunipola pick themselves at 8. If Morgan goes with the Lions, or Lancaster wants to bring 3 along, then I'd expect one of Waldrom or Crane to go too.
As with number 8, the two opensides are dead certs, both great proper 7's. Maybe even Armitage or Luke Wallace will be picked, hard to say though.
Joe Simpson looks like he could develope quite nicely if handled correctly, and I'd expect there to be a couple of fairly established players to go too, Dickson and whoever is left between Care/Youngs.
Freddie Burns is a definite, and I'd expect Flood is too. The question is who the third choice will be, Ford is as good a shout as any I think.
Jonathan Joseph gets a chance to cement his place in the squad.
I'd like to see Varndell get another go, especially if Wade gets picked by Gatland, but I don't think Stuart will select him.
I'm really unsure as to whether Strettle and Ashton will go, I don't think they should. Strettle has had plenty of opportunities before and been shown up. Ashton needs time off to work on his weaknesses, and not squander other peoples' potential.
There are plenty of good wingers to choose from in any case.
I don't think Goode should go, you saw on the weekend that he is simply too slow. I'd expect Foden and Brown to be given a chance to win the starting slot, hopefully with someone else given the chance to impress as a newcomer.
Then there are people like Kyle Eastmond and Elliot Daly who could be seen as utility backs, in any case, I didn't know where to pt their names down but I would definitely bring them.
 
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Bit biased, but I definitely think Calum Clarke should be touring and I know Stuart Lancaster is a fan of his. Hopefully got all his stupid moments out of his system and a shot in an England team could really see him kick on. Has such a desire to perform and win and has versatility on his side as he could potentially fill any position in the back row.
 
I'm not massively keen on Ford touring.
He probably will but he's regressed this season, massively.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2
 
Agreed. It would be very easy to just take Burns and Flood and have Twelvetrees cover 10 from the pitch...
 
Depth at TH Prop is a real issue, Wilson has been going from strength to strength this season though, and he is by far the better scrummager and ball carrier when compared to Cole though.
Depends on how you look at it. At the minute, Cole and Wilson are the only international quality tightheads we have. On the other hand, there are a troupe of young, promising tightheads that are starting to take the reins at their clubs. Thomas at Sale, Knight at Gloucester, Collier at Harlequins, Swainston at Wasps. It's also only a matter of time before Hoani Tui qualifies for England and we have that eligibility debate. I don't understand why Brookes is in the Saxons, and I think PDJ has a lot of work to do to get back involved. Stevens would have been a good option had he not retired.
 
Yeah that's the issue though, those guys are still just prospects at club level...
There isn't really anyone that's sticking their hand up to be select right now.
 
Yeah that's the issue though, those guys are still just prospects at club level...
There isn't really anyone that's sticking their hand up to be select right now.

Probably true (apart from maybe David Wilson). Next season watch out for Tom Mercey. This lad has been understudy to Brian Mujati for a couple of years now but looks like he could have the whole package. Only in his early 20's but has taken apart scrums with far more experience.

Not saying he will be international quality by next season, but I think it's a name that people will start to hear a lot more of.
 
I wasn't talking about Wilson in my last post.
He thoroughly outshone Cole on the weekend, and like I said he has been playing really well this season.
I'm not suggesting he is better than Cole overall before anyone takes it that way, but there are areas where he is considerably better than Dan.

It's just that outside of Cole and Wilson we don't have anyone who looks like they will be able to handle international Argentinians and flourish.
We should be ok in the near future though.

Was just looking at the teamsheet for the last game we played against Argentina in 2009:

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/91199.html

Holy lol
 
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On the outside chance that the Lions decide to take Youngs AND Care to Australia (unlikely, but possible), who does everyone want to see tour? I think Dickson and Simpson will go, and that leaves one more spot. I know it would be Wigglesworth, but Robson could be a better investment.
 
Wigglesworth has already strung together 12 caps, and didn't look like he was going to improve, his selection would be very unimaginative.
 
Assuming Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Chris Robshaw, one of Tom Croft/Tom Wood, Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi are Lions tourists.

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Tom Youngs/Dylan Hartley
3 Dave Wilson

4 Joe Launchbury
5 Dave Attwood

6 Tom Wood/Tom Croft
8 Ben Morgan/Billy Vunipola
7 Will Fraser

9 Danny Care
10 Freddie Burns

12 Billy Twelvetrees
13 Jonathan Joseph

11 Jonny May
15 Mike Brown
14 Christian Wade

16 Alex Corbisiero/Joe Marler
17 Rob Webber/Dylan Hartley
18 Henry Thomas
19 Ed Slater
20 Matt Kvesic
21 Joe Simpson
22 Toby Flood
23 Elliot Daly

Although I see Corbisiero as the long-term starting option and Mako V as an impact player, I think he deserves the chance to start. Corbisiero will be edging back from injury so I wouldn't throw him in straight away, he travels assuming he's fit, otherwise take Marler. Wilson is a good player and should be given a start at 3 to show really what he can do, and hopefully show he can be legitimate competition for Cole which he badly needs.

Youngs will probably tour with the Lions but I don't think he's certain. If he does, start Hartley. However, if he doesn't, I'd take Webber over Hartley for the bench spot and give him an opportunity, Hartley is a 'safe' type of option but Youngs is legitimately a better player than him now anyway and has some experience so Hartley isn't really needed for the insurance anymore.

I think Launchbury should tour with the Lions as his ball-skills, youthful energy and athleticism could come in handy and be a nice compliment to the more bruising, regimented forwards likely to tour. However I think it'll be too early for him, so he starts here. Parling will probably tour and for me, needs sifting out of the line-up anyway. As good as he's played, you can't just pick your best 15 and expect to get away with it. The front 5 is really lacking in in the tight come scrum-time and a bigger, tighthead lock like Attwood - also a line-out general, in excellent form and putting himself about all over the pitch - is what I think is needed or should at the very least be looked at closely. Slater deserves his shot based on his form, Lawes shouldn't immediately be in the squad and hasn't lived up to his billing, so he takes the bench spot.

Wood starts over Croft if he doesn't tour with the Lions as we need a more natural, grafting blindside opposite a youthful 7 IMO. I haven't put Croft then on the bench as I think one of these two will definitely tour, just not sure which. If Wood tours I would start Croft however, give him the chance to play himself back in to the 6 shirt, offers experience and prevents Haskell playing and giving away a kabillion penalties. Alongside him I've gone for Will Fraser, purely becasue he looks the most ready and I'd like to see what he can bring to the table. Might not have the most potential on the floor, but if we play a quick, decisive up-tempo game like Quins he could be the best link-man at 7. But yeah, looks the most ready, deserves his shot based on form too as he rarely has a bad game it seems. Kvesic has more natural openside potential on the floor, but I don't think he's truly ready yet for a start. Needs to establish himself as a proper 7 at Gloucester first. I see him as a potential England future 7 more than Fraser, but I'm wary about taking too many gambles at once.

Morgan at 8 is a no-brainer if fit. We suffered from a not having a big, ball-carrying 8 when he was injured in the Six Nations but I've still gone for no back-up on the bench as the spot is needed elsewhere. Billy V starts in Morgan is too unfit to tour and needs more time.

Don't think both England half-backs will tour and Youngs is the one with more experience, probably the expected starter for England when both him and Care are on form and his form has been class the last few weeks. I think he tours and Care stays behind, so he starts. Simpson on the bench, I'd like to see him get some time as he could legitimately push these two for the starting booth.

Burns at 10, I think he needs a start to prove he can perform throughout a whole game rather than as an impact player and we get to have a good look at his defence and tempermant over the course of a whole game and in an early dogfight against a tough side. Flood on the bench for a 'secure' option.

Twelvetrees at inside-centre. He's not in great form but looks the most legit 12 option for the future. Good distributor, kicking game, carries the ball well and has the size to be a defensive rock if he keeps developing that part of his game. Needs to perform though having finally been given his chance proper. Anthony Allen is unlucky to miss out here. Tempted to put him on the bench with 36 covering fly-half but I'm not comfortable with that.

Joseph at 13. Most experienced, safe option at 13, gives us a chance to look at him properly and see whether Tuilagi has legit comp. More ready than the likes of Tomkins, Eastmond or Trinder.

May and Wade starting on the wings, finally getting there shots! Both are in excellent form and have been all season and for a while, it's about time they were allowed to show what they could do. Brown gets his opportunity at FB too in his natural position. Daly on the bench, would like to take a look at him at FB primarily but also in the centres, probably at 13, maybe even a shot on the wing if either May or Wade don't perform.

- -

What I THINK the team will look like, though, is more like this:

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Tom Youngs (or Hartley, if Youngs tours)
3 Henry Thomas

4 Joe Launchbury
5 Ed Slater

6 Tom Croft (or Wood, if Croft tours)
8 Ben Morgan
7 Will Fraser

9 Danny Care
10 Freddie Burns

12 Billy Twelvetrees
13 Jonathan Joseph

11 David Strettle
15 Alex Goode
14 Christian Wade

16 Joe Marler
17 Dylan Hartley/Tom Lindsay (like the look of him, but not ready).
18 Dave Wilson
19 Courtney Lawes
20 James Haskell
21 Joe Simpson
22 Toby Flood
23 Mike Brown
 
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You should all listen to this guy^

Agree on most points...
Don't disagree strongly enough on any to remember what they were...
 
To be fair, the suggested team isn't bad at all. If Lancaster did choose that, it would only be Goode and Strettle that I would find hard to swallow. Back three seems to be where he makes the strange choices. Christ, even under Johnson we had a better back three.
 
You should all listen to this guy^

Agree on most points...
Don't disagree strongly enough on any to remember what they were...

What you said.


I think Ford touring would be good for his confidence and might help him get his game back. I know you can't pick players just because it might help them but I honnestly think that since all the hype over him possibly going to South Africa Ford's game has dropped due to lack of confidence rather than his talent suddenly vannishing. Some time with the EPS and maybe a cap might do him a world of good.

Of course if we listen to Stuart Barnes then Gareth STeenson (English qualified on residence) should go as a third 10. I almost choked on my pint when I heard him say that...

Lions in a little over an hour, I have a sneaking suspicious 36 will go which could be interesting for this particular discussion.


EDIT: Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley, Tom Youngs, Geoff Parling, Tom Croft all picked for the lions.
 
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On Lions duty:

Dan Cole
Mako Vunipola
Dylan Hartley
Tom Youngs
Geoff Parling
Tom Croft
Manu Tuilagi
Owen Farrell
Ben Youngs

My 23:

1. Alex Corbisiero
2. Webber/Lindsay
3. Davey Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Tom Wood
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Ben Morgan
9. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns
11. Jonny May
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Jonathan Joseph
14. Christian Wade
15. Mike Brown

16. Joe Marler
17. Webber/Lindsay
18. ????????
19. Slater/Lawes
20. Toby Flood
21. Joe Simpson
22. Brad Barritt
23. Ben Foden

Might revise that pretty soon.
Lancaster will probably want to go with someone like Joe Gray at hooker, but I don't really see the point, from a development point of view.
 
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Awkward position with both Wood, Robshaw, and Morgan all available and fit. Does Lancaster chance his arm and move Robshaw across to fit in Fraser or Kvesic (...or Armitage)? Or does he stick with what, so far, has been England's best back-row by a large margin? Will Billy Vunipola still get a cap?

It's a shame to see Mako Vunipola go, good for him no doubt, but from an England view it would have nice to have seen him more. Oh, and we're suddenly out of hookers in the EPS. Webber/Lindsay/Gray/Buchanan?

Glad to see Farrell, Tuilagi, Parling, and Croft all go. We get to see more depth in their absence; I think they trade, in the fore and lattermost cases, on reputation rather than ability. Tuilagi's absence means the backs might do more than just crash ball.
 
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