What's up with England's ball-carrying forwards?

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

^ True Dat - but being a bigger guy he can challenge the gain-line himself, which is something we all learnt the hard-way that Twelvetrees categorically cannot do at the international level.
In other words we wouldn't rely on him for distribution alone. As I say, what we've come to realise about Twelvetrees is that he's largely in there for his distribution....which is crap.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Twelvetrees should in theory challenge the gainline, he's also a fairly big lad and looks a decent carrier. He just doesn't seem to do it much at international level, he seems to have it in his mind that he is a distributor and almost obsesses over it. That drop just before halftime against Aus was a great example - Ford trying to come on the wraparound, the timing of the move had obviously gone wrong and Toomua was about to smash him, but he was obsessed with trying to get that ball away to the extent that it didn't seem to cross his mind to cancel, brace and take the hit, never mind the fact that Ford wasn't even there to take that pass. I think an international class centre, and I'd include Burrell on form in that, would have just held onto that ball, taken into contact and tried to hit a weak shoulder and maybe get something out of it despite the wrong timing.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm a Burrell fan he's a very complete player - lacking maybe a decent kicking game.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think Burrell is better competition for the 13 shirt. Tuilagi has more mass but I think Burrell has a more rounded game. I'd rather Eastmond at 12 and not sure who should be 2nd choice. 12trees on form would definitely be there but how long has it been since he was really on form? His performance against Wales in the last 6N was decent but beyond that...?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

i don't think its a question of form for Twelvetrees unfortunately... he just can't do it at the very highest level

 

[mcc100763]

Joseph and Burrell would be an interesting combo, pace, power and aggression combined.....

 

[Peat]

i don't think its a question of form for Twelvetrees unfortunately... he just can't do it at the very highest level

He has though.

 

[j'nuh]

He has though.

That season he moved from Tigers to Glos, he was amazing. Made the England team within half a season and was the best home nations 12 during the Six Nations. Didn't make the Lions initially (although I thought that he was unlucky not to, thought that his lack of an international reputation counted against him at the time) but then got called up after an injury or two. Played understandably worse in the season after when Glos collectively turned ****, although still nominated player of the season for Glos. But Glos have started to look better and he hasn't.

Gloucester has seen a big improvement in the pack this year, and the backline looks shaky by comparison. So I wonder whether it's the effect of a forward taking over as the head coach with an emphasis being placed on getting the pack right.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

To e a little clearer, by the highest level I mean the top 3/4 teams; it's all very well looking like you've got time on the ball against a poor Argentina, Italy and Scotland. He hasn't shown the line threatening offload promising aspect of his game against the better sides as far as I've seen though I could be mistaken.

 

[Peat]

To e a little clearer, by the highest level I mean the top 3/4 teams; it's all very well looking like you've got time on the ball against a poor Argentina, Italy and Scotland. He hasn't shown the line threatening offload promising aspect of his game against the better sides as far as I've seen though I could be mistaken.

Ditto.

I've no wish to go through another long argument over Twelvetrees, but for me, there is no question mark over his ability to perform against anyone; the question mark rests over his ability to perform consistently and what he needs to make him consistent.

While I'm retreading old ground, I still have a severe downer on Burrell over the quality of his tackling in New Zealand.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ditto.

I've no wish to go through another long argument over Twelvetrees, but for me, there is no question mark over his ability to perform against anyone; the question mark rests over his ability to perform consistently and what he needs to make him consistent.

While I'm retreading old ground, I still have a severe downer on Burrell over the quality of his tackling in New Zealand.

Tackling for the most part can be coached, a good rugby brain is much harder to obtain.

 

[goodNumber10]

Ditto.

I've no wish to go through another long argument over Twelvetrees, but for me, there is no question mark over his ability to perform against anyone; the question mark rests over his ability to perform consistently and what he needs to make him consistent.

While I'm retreading old ground, I still have a severe downer on Burrell over the quality of his tackling in New Zealand.

IIRC He had an average defensive game in the second test, but shored everything up in the third after the Eastmond led defence capitulated... I;m not sure there is a massive issue with his tackling if he plays in a consisten defensive unit.

On 36, lets be fair, he's played with three unsettled combinations.

He played with Barritt in the 6Nations the dropped tot he bench on Tuilagis return, then Eastmond in Argentina, then Tomkins, then Burrell and now back to Barritt. None of us should forget the step up from club to international duty is huge and he's not even playing Champions Cup. I know it's the age old comparison but Greenwood did not come into the England team and be world class, he took two three season to settle and was played out of position by Woodward to accomodate Wilkinson etc.... Remember he made his name on the 97 Lions tour but it wasn't really until 2000,2001 lions tour people finally saw him living up to his potential, he went to tigers and flopped and then returned to Quins which is when he suddenly hit form again, he's only 26, has got 8 more caps than say Ford for example and never came through the age groups.

The point i'm making is we have no idea yet if he can perform against the big teams because he's basically a newbie.

Also i'll take this opportunity to say he looks like Napoleon Dynamite (just wanted to say that), and i'll also point out that this thread was about the forwards yet here we are guffing on about the backs yet again.

 

[Peat]

Also i'll take this opportunity to say he looks like Napoleon Dynamite (just wanted to say that), and i'll also point out that this thread was about the forwards yet here we are guffing on about the backs yet again.

My favoured comparison is Prince William on steroids.

And surely this is all your fault for mentioning targets in the centres to begin with... ^_^

 

[goodNumber10]

that's what you get for letting a flyhalf loose in a thread about forwards

 

[Every Time Ref]

I only started it out of politeness, we all know how grumpy the fatties can be when they don't feel appreciated.

Tackling for the most part can be coached, a good rugby brain is much harder to obtain.

100% with this. I'm a big believer in investing in the players with the uncoachable skills simply because, yeah, self-explanatory, you can coach the other stuff. Just look at Danny Cipriani, it took a long time but having added some coachable basics to his inherent class he looks like a truly class player. But re: Twelvetrees, I'm not convinced he fits into that category as such. It's not like he's producing moments of genius on the international stage then letting himself down with poor basics, he just looks, at this point, like he isn't able to make the step up - not to say that won't change, but it's a different thing. I don't, honestly, think he's got that good a rugby brain.

 

[goodNumber10]

100% with this. I'm a big believer in investing in the players with the uncoachable skills simply because, yeah, self-explanatory, you can coach the other stuff. Just look at Danny Cipriani, it took a long time but having added some coachable basics to his inherent class he looks like a truly class player. But re: Twelvetrees, I'm not convinced he fits into that category as such. It's not like he's producing moments of genius on the international stage then letting himself down with poor basics, he just looks, at this point, like he isn't able to make the step up - not to say that won't change, but it's a different thing. I don't, honestly, think he's got that good a rugby brain.

Skills vs Abilities.

It's the age old coaches discussion.

Did some work with Saracens about 8/9 years ago, their youth development team came and worked a couple of days with us and ran coaching clinics etc... in discussion they were quite open about looking to recruit big athletic guys because they could up skill them but not make a small guy big. We got into the abilities vs skills discussion and they were quite clear that they didn't consider it relevant.

 

[Peat]

Incidentally - mild tangent - am I the only one who feels that Lancaster doesn't put a terribly high premium on ball carriers in his pack?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Nope.

He's the man that played Wood at 8.

Fetchers and ball carriers make way for guys that "hit" a lot of rucks and tackle a lot.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Nope.

He's the man that played Wood at 8.

Fetchers and ball carriers make way for guys that "hit" a lot of rucks and tackle a lot.

Why did we play Wood at 8? Were Morgan and Vunipola injured or not in the team at that time?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Have a feeling Morgan was injured and Binny came onto the (England) scene that summer in Argentina.