Tuilagi and England's centres

[goodNumber10]

I'm not really sure why everyone is getting so bent out of shape (well the Leicester fans at least).

Don't think anyone is saying he's rubbish or should never play again, people are just saying we want his skill set to improve and for him not to be so one dimensional. We've seen glimpses of it, lions tour that offload to BOD was insanely good, but he's not a complete centre and Burrell has shown more all round skills and a strike rate to match Tuilagis.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say we would like Manu to work on his core skills.

Anyone who's played knows clean ball is better than dirty ball. Yes he sucks people in and creates a ruck with 4/5 opposition in it, but just imagine if, once those tacklers had committed to him, he gave a delicate pass into the space he's created to keep the ball alive?

Consider that, and then tell me he doesn't need to work on his all round game.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Everyone has there favourites and Tuilagi is probably most Leicester fans, you can see why with his amazing runs and try scoring. I agree that he has to add much more to the skill set but in this new England team with Farrell taking the ball too the line now his job would be easier, I ask this would Burrell have scored 11 tries in 21 test in the team Tuilagi has had to play in ? I personally don't think he would have.

 

[goodNumber10]

I agree that it's unlikely.

But I'm a firm believer in consistency and not changing a side that's playing well. Manu will get his chance, and hopefully we'll see a bit more of an all round game coupled with that power running game.

 

[goodNumber10]

At the end of the day it's a nice problem to have. When was the last time England ever had options at 13.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree entirely with the above notion.
Manu is a better player than Burrell.

But England are currently a better team than the last time Manu played for us.

All I want is for us to maintain our new style and not revert to "pass it to Manu-ball" and for Manu to begin to utilise the space he creates instead of just taking contact.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Doubts from people who have probably never played rugby and don't understand the game. A team needs at least one back, preferably a 12 or 13 that has the power to break the gain line. A well organised defence will take care of a fast, elusive centre and will defend against fast accurate passes, but when you have a 6ft 110kg guy who can run as fast as Tuilagi can, it doesn't matter how good your defence is, sooner or later he will get through. You can know exactly where he's going to run, but it makes no difference. 11 tries in 21 tests speaks for itself. I'm just gobsmacked that people are criticising him as much as they are.

To be honest I'm more gobsmacked that people can't appreciate that we're not advocating shoving Tuilagi onto the scrap heap or hanging him out to dry; we're talking about getting the best out of him, and honestly, I think you'd have to be pretty blind not to have noticed the difference to our attacking shape with Tuilagi on the field...or that we've been at our attacking best prior to Tuilagi's return - which doesn't tell us that we shouldn't be playing him, but it does speak of the merits of a 7-man back game where no individual player is the "go-to" man.
You'd also have to be pretty mad not to have noticed that Burrell breaks the gain-line - he averaged about 50 metres per game this tournament - and also the ability to run good lines really supports this.

 

[Patchey]

Everyone has there favourites and Tuilagi is probably most Leicester fans, you can see why with his amazing runs and try scoring. I agree that he has to add much more to the skill set but in this new England team with Farrell taking the ball too the line now his job would be easier, I ask this would Burrell have scored 11 tries in 21 test in the team Tuilagi has had to play in ? I personally don't think he would have.

Three tries in his first five tests though?

All the evidence suggests that Burrell has the potential to be a prolific scorer over a long period if give the opportunity, just like Many has been since 2011. Would the manner of his tries be different had Burrell been in Manu's place? Absolutly. would be have still scored a lot, i think so.



And yeah, can people who are taking this seemingly a bit personally please take note of what Henry just said. The idea that Burrell's good run of games means Manu should be sent out to pasture is madness. The two are going to fight it out over the 13 jersey and that is a GOOD thing. We've attacked better with Burrell at 13 and Manu will have to change the manner in which he plays to replicate what Burrell has given us.

 

[j'nuh]

We've attacked better with Burrell at 13 because:
- The England squad finally went away from Youngs/Dickson and brought in Care, who has tremendously increased the pace on the game. (He might not be the best at what he does, but I think he's made the biggest of impacts on this squad.)
- Farrell has upped his game. A lot. He takes the ball flatter, which gives the backline much more space to work with.
- Twelvetrees is a big improvement on Barritt, who is, I believe, the only center to have worked with Tuilagi.
- Brown has been in the form of his life and has been playing in his favoured position when Burrell has been in the squad. Tuilagi had Goode.
- May and Nowell provide much better counterattacking wingers than Ashton and out-of-position Brown/Foden.
- The pack is playing better now than before too. (I won't go through the individual changes.)

Point is, Burrell looks good in a great team and Tuilagi looked great in a good team, IMO.

Also, I don't get criticising Tuilagi for taking the ball into contact. We saw him tie three Italians up doing that. We do feel the benefits on the next phase, and getting the ball past the gain line is tremendously important. Moreover, suppose Tuilagi did pass it down the line. What the heck was the backline he played with going to do with it? Tuilagi did it so much because it was our best tactic at the time. I'd like to see him pass more, but I wouldn't mind using him mainly as a dummy runner and crasher. Crash to set up good next phase ball, and dummy run to pull off a backline move. May receiving it outside the back of Tuilagi would be lethal with his kind of pace.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm not really sure why everyone is getting so bent out of shape (well the Leicester fans at least).

Don't think anyone is saying he's rubbish or should never play again, people are just saying we want his skill set to improve and for him not to be so one dimensional. We've seen glimpses of it, lions tour that offload to BOD was insanely good, but he's not a complete centre and Burrell has shown more all round skills and a strike rate to match Tuilagis.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say we would like Manu to work on his core skills.

Anyone who's played knows clean ball is better than dirty ball. Yes he sucks people in and creates a ruck with 4/5 opposition in it, but just imagine if, once those tacklers had committed to him, he gave a delicate pass into the space he's created to keep the ball alive?

Consider that, and then tell me he doesn't need to work on his all round game.

Yeh I get what you mean here . I believe Ma'a Nonu was sent away by New Zealand to work on his distribution and kicking and came back a far better player . Competition is good for the squad at the end of the day .

 

[goodNumber10]

We saw him tie three Italians up doing that. We do feel the benefits on the next phase, and getting the ball past the gain line is tremendously important. Moreover, suppose Tuilagi did pass it down the line.

Watch this video, tulagi vs JDV. He's a great player, look at that cover tackle it's immense.

But importantly watch how many times he turns down an overlap to try and break the tackle, the big hit on JDV 1.35 in is a perfect example. everyone goes "ooooooof" but he has actually butchered a 3vs2. Who's outside him? Brown and Ashton (neither slouches in attack) vs Habana and Tuilagi goes for the contact. Then again at 3:30, another 3vs2 gone because he decides to take on the man.

Also look how often his ball carrying is actually ineffective. Yes he sucks in defenders, but he's not often getting over the advantage line an he's not generating quick ball by going to ground when his support hits.

[video=youtube_share;vPHypYGNokU]http://youtu.be/vPHypYGNokU[/video]

He is and will be for along time a superb player but he needs to develop his passing and decision making. I'm sure he'll do just that now he's back in the England set up.

 

[Maverick1987]

Watch this video, tulagi vs JDV. He's a great player, look at that cover tackle it's immense.

But importantly watch how many times he turns down an overlap to try and break the tackle, the big hit on JDV 1.35 in is a perfect example. everyone goes "ooooooof" but he has actually butchered a 3vs2. Wh's outside him? Brown and Ashton (neither slouches in attack) vs Habana and Tuilagi goes for the contact. Then again at 3:30, another 3vs2 gone becaus ehe decides to take on the man.

Also look how often his ball carrying is actually ineffective. Yes he sucks in defenders, but he's not often getting over the advantage line an he's not generating quick ball by going to ground when his support hits.

[video=youtube_share;vPHypYGNokU]http://youtu.be/vPHypYGNokU[/video]

He is and will be for along time a superb layer but he needs to develop his passing and decision making. I'm sure he'll do just that now he's back in the England set up.

I think at all times during a players career they should be looking to improve (look how much better Robshaw is in the line out than maybe 3 years ago for example) he does need to improve his distribution . He's capable of it just doesn't do it for some reason . Think someone mentioned the offload to bod in the lions tour . We could maybe try him on the wing off the bench but it definitely shouldn't be looking to move him there full time . Leicester won't do it for sure

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't think anyone should really look to move him to the wing, especially not Leicester. If he works on his decision making (which is actually the issue ) then he'll be an even more phenomenal player.

 

[Maverick1987]

I don't think anyone should really look to move him to the wing, especially not Leicester. If he works on his decision making (which is actually the issue ) then he'll be an even more phenomenal player.

Yep . Maybe the fact that Burrell is now challenging him for the shirt will literally force him to go away and work on other parts to his game . Or we could just play Burrell and Tuilagi together

 

[ratsapprentice]

Burrell's distribution isn't good enough for 12 in this England team I don't think.... maybe if Ford is at 10.
But his passing (especially to his right) is not consistently good enough to take the pressure off Farrell.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Looking at the video I was going to say 'yeah but he was younger then and now heeee....' problem is he kind of still does the same stuff. Anyway I want too try and come away from Burrell vs Tuilagi and ask what if it is a Northampton vs Tigers final ? who would be playing in the 13 shirt ?

 

[goodNumber10]

Tomkins

 

[Maverick1987]

Looking at the video I was going to say 'yeah but he was younger then and now heeee....' problem is he kind of still does the same stuff. Anyway I want too try and come away from Burrell vs Tuilagi and ask what if it is a Northampton vs Tigers final ? who would be playing in the 13 shirt ?

I'd probably be looking at Daly or Trinder . I guess playing 36 and Trinder together would be ok as they already know each other well

 

[Maverick1987]

Tomkins

No ! I think for even mentioning that you should go outside and have a quiet word with yourself !

 

[goodNumber10]

heheh!

it may not be who we want but he is the third choice.. It was only four months ago he was selected over Burrell.

 

[Maverick1987]

heheh!

it may not be who we want but he is the third choice.. It was only four months ago he was selected over Burrell.

I genuinely think it will be Trinder if tigers/saints final . I'm hoping for a sarries/tigers final though . That's the best scenario for England