England World Cup Squad

[BPM]

Yeah. My willingness to give Borthwick the benefit of the doubt is being stretched to breaking point.

Part of me thinks we'll still do OK, but our performances have been so pathetic for so long now, I don't have any real confidence we will. Particularly not with this bizarre squad.

 

[TopTen2003]

Yeah. My willingness to give Borthwick the benefit of the doubt is being stretched to breaking point.

Part of me thinks we'll still do OK, but our performances have been so pathetic for so long now, I don't have any real confidence we will. Particularly not with this bizarre squad.

Yeah I'm at a similar point. For all Borthwick comes across as a boring, simplistic coach in the media, he's known as an absolute details man and we haven't seen ruck speed like 2019 since he left as forwards coach. So he must know some of these performances are absolute guff.

The problem is I'm not seeing any cohesion, anywhere. I can't remember the last time we put something impressive together as a unit or even just looked like punching holes or breaking gain line over multiple phases. You watch an Ireland, a France and an All Blacks and you see it all the time, the threat, the menace, the intensity.

We look devoid of any real idea of how to attack a good international side, and unfortunately our defence hasn't looked as good as I hoped a Sinfield-drilled team would be.

Fearing the worst, but hoping it's part of a master plan we all don't yet see

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

And give Itoje the kick up the backside he needs for England.
At the moment he thinks he walks into the shirt, a reminder he is a custodian might get him back up again

From the Times.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

From the Times.

View attachment 17287

I'd be curious to see whether other players' stats have diminished in the same way. When you're playing in a less successful team it's more or less par for the course that your individual performances will also drop. If your overall attack is weaker then you'll have less opportunities for line breaks (hence contributing to less metres), if your overall defence is weaker then you'll have to make more cover/last ditch tackles (hence contributing to less tackle %) and there will be less dominant tackles for you to get turnovers from.

Given that Itoje still made more tackles and turnovers than any other England player in the Six Nations and more dominant tackles than anyone bar Ludlam, I'd expect that other players' performances must have also diminished.

 

[higgik]

I'd be curious to see whether other players' stats have diminished in the same way. When you're playing in a less successful team it's more or less par the the course that your individual performances will also diminish. If your overall attack is weaker then you'll have less opportunities for line breaks (hence contributing to less metres), if your overall defence is weaker then you'll have to make more cover/last ditch tackles (hence contributing to less tackle %) and there will be less dominant tackles for you to get turnovers from.

Given that Itoje still made more tackles and turnovers than any other England player in the Six Nations and more dominant tackles than anyone bar Ludlam, I'd expect that other players' performances must have also diminished.

True, but watching him for Sarries, I always get the impression there is a calculated edge to him, whereas for England he looks like he struggles to get there. That is also saying sometimes he looks like he is trying too hard to do something.
Maybe the culture is all wrong in the squad.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd be curious to see whether other players' stats have diminished in the same way. When you're playing in a less successful team it's more or less par the the course that your individual performances will also diminish. If your overall attack is weaker then you'll have less opportunities for line breaks (hence contributing to less metres), if your overall defence is weaker then you'll have to make more cover/last ditch tackles (hence contributing to less tackle %) and there will be less dominant tackles for you to get turnovers from.

Given that Itoje still made more tackles and turnovers than any other England player in the Six Nations and more dominant tackles than anyone bar Ludlam, I'd expect that other players' performances must have also diminished.

Yeah, those are just a few stats the journalists picked out. They could've used many more and, as you say, context is all.

There is, though, little doubt that he does not influence matches in the way he used to. There was talk of him being used differently - hitting more rucks etc to which there may be some truth, but if you do have a player with a point of difference, why would you neuter that to do more stuff that any old donkey could do?

He's a good player, but no longer the real star material he looked like he would become.

It has always been a disappointment to me that he's not been more of a leader, especially given the death of leadership material since Hartley retired. He wouldn't be a sergeant major type like Farrell but he's intelligent, a nailed on starter and presumably has the respect of the other players. I think there is much more to him than we're seeing and giving him some formal responsibility might just have inspired him - it might not, but a lot of people thrive more than they expect when asked to step up.

 

[g6mcg]

From the Times.

View attachment 17287

Largely explained by his role in the team changing I expect. He's clearing out more rucks due to the lack of a decent tighthead lock.

 

[g6mcg]

why would you neuter that to do more stuff that any old donkey could do?

I present Jonny Hill's 19 caps

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I present Jonny Hill's 19 caps

Hill's discipline is guff but you can't question his effort levels - his stats are always way up there
Made more tackles off the bench than Ribbans/Stuart/Blamire did as starters, and I remember a prem stat showing his rucks hit stats are pretty crazy

 

[g6mcg]

Hill's discipline is guff but you can't question his effort levels - his stats are always way up there
Made more tackles off the bench than Ribbans/Stuart/Blamire did as starters, and I remember a prem stat showing his rucks hit stats are pretty crazy

Yeah exactly, it's been worth picking a penalty machine because they get through the heavy work.

I'll return to lurking with brief interventions to defend Itoje. Starting to suspect I might have some ongoing issues after being criticised for contributing less when I got moved forward from the back row...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hill's discipline is guff but you can't question his effort levels - his stats are always way up there
Made more tackles off the bench than Ribbans/Stuart/Blamire did as starters, and I remember a prem stat showing his rucks hit stats are pretty crazy

Take published heights / weights with a pinch of salt but he always *looked* a proper sized unit.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Out of interest, would people want Borewick out if you didn't get out the group or would you want him to have a fair crack at the 6N before making up your mind? Or would your patience extend even beyond that point. I think you should try and give him at least 2 years but for a nation like England, after a group stage exit, might be hard to justify.

 

[Reiser99]

Out of interest, would people want Borewick out if you didn't get out the group or would you want him to have a fair crack at the 6N before making up your mind? Or would your patience extend even beyond that point. I think you should try and give him at least 2 years but for a nation like England, after a group stage exit, might be hard to justify.

I'm on the fence. I honestly would say it depends on what the long term plan is. If Borthwick sticks with the same coaching setup and picks the same players then easily out. If he decides to start from scratch and get some more experience, proven coaches around him then give him the 6Ns at least.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm on the fence. I honestly would say it depends on what the long term plan is. If Borthwick sticks with the same coaching setup and picks the same players then easily out. If he decides to start from scratch and get some more experience, proven coaches around him then give him the 6Ns at least.

Fair. I think it's safe to say, even though things don't like great for England at the moment, that there is little to no chance you go out at the group.

 

[ncurd]

Out of interest, would people want Borewick out if you didn't get out the group or would you want him to have a fair crack at the 6N before making up your mind? Or would your patience extend even beyond that point. I think you should try and give him at least 2 years but for a nation like England, after a group stage exit, might be hard to justify.

Group exit is unacceptable for any England team. Especially as we are ranked higher than them all still and never lost to a 'Tier 2' team.

Exactly the same way EJ should of been on his arse for a 5th place 6 Nations finish.

Giving people EJ time is what got us into this mess and a group exit should be new coach, completely new thinking with young blood with 4 years to build.

Reality is England with our resources should always be top half 6 nations (ideally 1st or 2nd) and semi-finals world cup. Anything else is underperforming.

 

[Which Tyler]

Out of interest, would people want Borewick out if you didn't get out the group or would you want him to have a fair crack at the 6N before making up your mind? Or would your patience extend even beyond that point. I think you should try and give him at least 2 years but for a nation like England, after a group stage exit, might be hard to justify.

IMO, he's got no credit in the bank to fall back on, with England or as head coach anywhere else (1 season at club level isn't building much credit).
I'll allow him* the frankly bad 6N period as getting used to his job, not having his choice of coaches, no real prep, time, and selection being limited by Eddie's EPS picks.

However, he's now got the coaches he wanted, and the players he wants; and he's had them in camp for 6-8 weeks and counting, will be 15 weeks by the time the RWC starts.
The warm-ups are just that, they're pre-season matches with international teams, not club; so I'm trying not to read too much into them.
Par at the RWC, given the draw, is a losing semi-final.

If we drop out in the pool stages, then I'll be calling for his head.
If we lose the QF, having failed to perform well, I'll (probably) be calling for his head.
If we lose the QF, having performed well, and just got beaten by a better team on the day - fair enough, I'll be disgruntled, but probably give him the 6N and June window.
If we lose the SF, he'll have reached par, and earned to reach the 2-year mark to see if he can refresh the squad and start getting some improvements.
If we win the SF, he's probably earned the full 4 year period (barring future bad performances.



* very generous of me, I know

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd keep him on....until 2025

Andy Farrell: Ireland head coach signs contract extention until 2025

Andy Farrell is rewarded for steering Ireland to historic series win in New Zealand with new contract that will see him stay as head coach beyond next years World Cup; Farrell: I am excited about continuing to work with the group and with the next generation of Irish players.

www.skysports.com

Who else is there to bring in if we binned him after the RWC, tbf. Cockerill?
I'd probably give him a few years, at least, even if I do have massive reservations over him/our defence/our attack coaches - you've got to at least give him a full season of coaching before you can judge him fully, though if we bombed out at the groups my mind might change

Plus we've paid out enough for him already without paying out severance pay too

 

[Saintjay]

I think a few people including myself first of all saw this W/C as a free hit for Borthwick. Yet with no visible signs of improvement, lack of attack etc. It's the general apathy and lack of interest this England regime is now generating that is just as likely to be his down fall.

Across many forums, pod casts, I've never seen so many dejected England fans. I've certainly never known England going into a W/C with doubts if we can even beat Argentina. I'm going to the game Saturday and even part of me thinks i can't be bothered, it's going to be tedious. I've never felt like that following Saints and England. Some thing be it the results, style of play, has knocked the stuffing out of players and fans. As far as I'm aware participation in rugby in England is falling and this England team isn't going to get youngsters joining a club. That alone must be concerning to the RFU.

The big concern for me is that he gets the benefit of the doubt and has two years post W/C peddling the whole he now gets to build his team in his style and in his way line. The I've not had time, it's Eddies fault won't wash. If he has a poor world cup, poor six nations i think the RFU won't be able to ignore the boos that will fill the Twickenham night air. The cycle then repeats itself.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd keep him on....until 2025

Andy Farrell: Ireland head coach signs contract extention until 2025

Andy Farrell is rewarded for steering Ireland to historic series win in New Zealand with new contract that will see him stay as head coach beyond next years World Cup; Farrell: I am excited about continuing to work with the group and with the next generation of Irish players.

www.skysports.com

Don't know how these things get into the press, but I've seen a couple of clauses from Farrell's contract extension.

3.1.2. Termination

"Notwithstanding any other clauses in this contract, should Ireland be eliminated, as expected, at the quarter-final stage of the 2023 Rugby World Cup, Mr Farrell shall be released from this contract and be available to become the head coach of the national team of the country of his birth on a pre-agreed salary of £10,000 per annum on the proviso that no other members of Mr Farrell's family are involved with that team.

Should this clause apply, other members of Mr Farrell's coaching team including Mr Catt and Mr O'Connell shall be entitled to join Mr Farrell in his new appointment".

 

[Which Tyler]

I think a few people including myself first of all saw this W/C as a free hit for Borthwick. Yet with no visible signs of improvement, lack of attack etc. It's the general apathy and lack of interest this England regime is now generating that is just as likely to be his down fall.

Agreed.
As of his appointment, I think pretty much everyone would have said that, even if the wrong choice, Borthwick deserves 2 years (well, 1 2/3 anyway) with anything but crashing out in the pools.
Then France put 50 on us at Twickenham.
His win ratio after 6 matches is 33%
The performances on the pitch look... clueless.
His personal charisma is... absent.