England World Cup Squad

[BrokenWing]

With the amount of money the RFU have poured into buying him and his coaches out of their other commitments….Oh, and getting rid of Eddie, I've got a feeling Borthwick will be around for quite some time.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Borthwick will learn, he's an extremely smart coach
The worry is will a poor world cup knock his confidence and will the media turn on him too quickly

 

[BPM]

Made worse by the fact that he lacks the charm and charisma to manage the media.

 

[TopTen2003]

In another mind bending twist, Jonny Hill- not picked for the World Cup squad, is potentially starting at Lock vs Wales on Saturday.

Thoughts?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Borthwick will learn, he's an extremely smart coach
The worry is will a poor world cup knock his confidence and will the media turn on him too quickly

He's taken on one of the highest profile jobs there is in rugby. That comes with the expectation of delivery - learning on the job isn't really on the agenda with roles like this. Virtually everybody agrees that it's too early for him, but we'll have to see how patient the RFU are willing to be.

If the World Cup is poor, the media will ramp up the pressure, if not outright turn on him. That will be two full campaigns under his stewardship and then there's the fact that he is dull and does not play the media game. Jones' Australia doing better than us would be another stick to beat him with.

TBH I feel a bit sorry for Borthwick as it feels like he's been set up to fail.

Post RWC, irrespective of outcome, there will be a rebuilding job. The RFU will need to be sure they have the right man at the helm for that.

 

[Saintjay]

In another mind bending twist, Jonny Hill- not picked for the World Cup squad, is potentially starting at Lock vs Wales on Saturday.

Thoughts?

As I've already mentioned there's talk of rumours of May as well

 

[Reiser99]

In another mind bending twist, Jonny Hill- not picked for the World Cup squad, is potentially starting at Lock vs Wales on Saturday.

Thoughts?

Well that's just stupid, contradicts everything Borthwick has said about picking early for cohesion and just makes us look more like a laughing stock.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I wouldn't care if we lost after playing a drilled set piece 'boks' style rugby, nor if we lost trying to play a more open attacking style of rugby.

It's the fact we lost without any noticeable style or gameplan. Although I feel for SB, how has he not just got them to at least look like half a team? They looked worse than most ba bas teams.

 

[Nudger]

Going off their regular position for their clubs (and in alphabetical order, not ranked)

1. Genge, Marler, Rodd
2. Dan, George, Walker
3. Cole, Sinckler, Stuart
4. Itoje, Martin
5. Chessum, Ribbans
6. Curry, Lawes
7. Earl, Ludlam, Willis
8. Vunipola
9. Care, van Poortvliet, Youngs
10. Farrell, Ford, Smith
11.
12. Tuilagi
13. Daly, Lawrence, Marchant
14. Malins, Watson
15. Arundell, Steward


Obv players play multiple, i.e. Ludlam unlikely to start at 7 for England

Unless you go Lawes Ludlum Earls

 

[Nudger]

Yeah I'm at a similar point. For all Borthwick comes across as a boring, simplistic coach in the media, he's known as an absolute details man and we haven't seen ruck speed like 2019 since he left as forwards coach. So he must know some of these performances are absolute guff.

The problem is I'm not seeing any cohesion, anywhere. I can't remember the last time we put something impressive together as a unit or even just looked like punching holes or breaking gain line over multiple phases. You watch an Ireland, a France and an All Blacks and you see it all the time, the threat, the menace, the intensity.

We look devoid of any real idea of how to attack a good international side, and unfortunately our defence hasn't looked as good as I hoped a Sinfield-drilled team would be.

Fearing the worst, but hoping it's part of a master plan we all don't yet see

Last Saturdays team was basically a scratch team of the not wanted.at least that's what I hope.

 

[higgik]

I wouldn't care if we lost after playing a drilled set piece 'boks' style rugby, nor if we lost trying to play a more open attacking style of rugby.

It's the fact we lost without any noticeable style or gameplan. Although I feel for SB, how has he not just got them to at least look like half a team? They looked worse than most ba bas teams.

They tried running in 1st half and it was more successful than the 2nd, when on the first midfield position, Smith sent up a bomb that started a Welsh attack. Seemed very premeditated and very unSmith like.

 

[higgik]

Last Saturdays team was basically a scratch team of the not wanted.at least that's what I hope.

How many of the team made the 33???
Steward, Malins, Marchant, Smith, Care, Stuart, Genge, Sinckler...

Not really a scratch team..

 

[Crash Hamster]

I wouldn't care if we lost after playing a drilled set piece 'boks' style rugby, nor if we lost trying to play a more open attacking style of rugby.

It's the fact we lost without any noticeable style or gameplan. Although I feel for SB, how has he not just got them to at least look like half a team? They looked worse than most ba bas teams.

"Even a dead cat will bounce if it falls from a great height" yet Bostik seems to have produced a succession of performances which have shown no sign of improvement whatsoever.

I'm left hoping that a series of progressively less likely excuses turn out to be true reasons and that it'll all come good come the RWC. While I would accept that there's no reason to reveal complex things like strike moves, I'd hope we'd have basics such as "the passing", "the catching" and "the tackling" nailed on by now.

 

[Nudger]

How many of the team made the 33???
Steward, Malins, Marchant, Smith, Care, Stuart, Genge, Sinckler...

Not really a scratch team..

7 didn't.

 

[Reiser99]

7 didn't.

Still should have been a better performance. If those 7 were arguably in contention then it's worrying. Even if not really then it's still worrying that the level of potential back up players is that.

 

[Saintjay]

How many of the team made the 33???
Steward, Malins, Marchant, Smith, Care, Stuart, Genge, Sinckler...

Not really a scratch team..

JVP, Ford, Ludlam...... I'll stop there, I'm even depressing myself.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The worst bit is that usually a new coach results in a sudden burst of energy and an uptick in squads, particularly if it was due to a toxic environment created by the previous coach. What we have seen is as if nothing changed and the decline is continuing exactly the same before, if not even accelerated. I could deal with boring and basic if it was controlled and accurate. I could deal with mistakes if it was playing daring and expansive rugby. I can't deal with boring, basic and mistake ridden. It's the fact it feels like we are leaving games without even firing a shot that is the most depressing bit, there is just no positive energy whatsoever in the squad. No cohesion, no energy, no accuracy, no ideas. They look like a team of strangers that have been bought together 5 minutes before the game and told to try to make something work. The fact the Barbarians can play with far more cohesion with minimal time together shows just how ridiculous it is.

My personal patience for Borthwick ran out after the 6N. There is just no excuse for any professional team being as bad as England have been recently, and certainly not one with the resources of England. I'm baffled at how we seem to be unique in the rugby world of having players perform so much worse for the national side than their clubs.

IMO England can't wait for the WC to start performing, they need to do it in the very next game. If as coach he can't address the absolutely embarrassing lack of cohesion and handling and get them to at least the level they should be performing almost instinctively already, then I doubt he will ever turn it around. The ONLY chance would be is if all his assistants were extremely skilled with proven international records, which I doubt we are going to get because our hiring policy is dog ****.

Borthwick is only part of the problem though, the RFU "leadership" needs to be completely overhauled for the absolute mess they have made of English rugby.

 

[higgik]

The worst bit is that usually a new coach results in a sudden burst of energy and an uptick in squads, particularly if it was due to a toxic environment created by the previous coach. What we have seen is as if nothing changed and the decline is continuing exactly the same before, if not even accelerated. I could deal with boring and basic if it was controlled and accurate. I could deal with mistakes if it was playing daring and expansive rugby. I can't deal with boring, basic and mistake ridden. It's the fact it feels like we are leaving games without even firing a shot that is the most depressing bit, there is just no positive energy whatsoever in the squad. No cohesion, no energy, no accuracy, no ideas. They look like a team of strangers that have been bought together 5 minutes before the game and told to try to make something work. The fact the Barbarians can play with far more cohesion with minimal time together shows just how ridiculous it is.

My personal patience for Borthwick ran out after the 6N. There is just no excuse for any professional team being as bad as England have been recently, and certainly not one with the resources of England. I'm baffled at how we seem to be unique in the rugby world of having players perform so much worse for the national side than their clubs.

IMO England can't wait for the WC to start performing, they need to do it in the very next game. If as coach he can't address the absolutely embarrassing lack of cohesion and handling and get them to at least the level they should be performing almost instinctively already, then I doubt he will ever turn it around. The ONLY chance would be is if all his assistants were extremely skilled with proven international records, which I doubt we are going to get because our hiring policy is dog ****.

Borthwick is only part of the problem though, the RFU "leadership" needs to be completely overhauled for the absolute mess they have made of English rugby.

RFU all politicians who think they know.
Mind you RA in similar spot if not worse as there are 2 other major winter sports in competition.

There needs to be some sort of long term development plan that separates professional and community.

In the pro game, I would be really driving for a complete overhaul of the calendar to reduce club/international conflict and also to take control of the U18 academies back from clubs.
It might be expensive and not get results immediately, but it would provide a better pathway and also mean clubs would not feel aggrieved about a young player coming through the ranks and costing more on salary cap. They would be contracting the adult player, so costs would be less.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah. At first that sounded harsh and then I did my own count and came up with 11 too:

Genge
Sinckler
Stuart
Underhill
Dombrandt
Mercer
Smith
Slade
Lawrence
Arundell

Plus one of the other looseheads.

Maybe 12 …

I know I'm going to get some heat for saying this, but the more I think about it, I could see May going. He's had a poor season for sure, but having seen our other inexperienced options failing to really grab the opportunity, I think May at 80% of his peak is probably still better than the alternatives.

10 out of the original 28 it was in the end although I'm not going to listen when you start talking back rows in future.…..

BTW. When thinking about our hooking options has McGuigan been fit?

 

[Scotty]

Out of interest, would people want Borewick out if you didn't get out the group or would you want him to have a fair crack at the 6N before making up your mind? Or would your patience extend even beyond that point. I think you should try and give him at least 2 years but for a nation like England, after a group stage exit, might be hard to justify.

Group stage exit given our group would be bad and heads would have to role!

Honestly though as long as he gets out of the group we need to give him a real chance post WC to build, he was never going to be a quick fix type of coach IMO (like EJ did when he first came in) but he can build something if given time.

Can, doesnt mean he will manage it but i dont want to be chopping and changing coaches everytime we have a few bad results especially when the squad was bad before he got it.

Post WC for the first 2 years will be his test, rebuild in the first and needs improvement on the second.