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xparker
Guest
What a great win by S.Africa!!
Boks for the WC!!!
Boks for the WC!!!
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mirlos
Guest
The shocking thing, for me, its not that England have lost with SA (any team could lose with them, they are just displaying some GREAT rugby), the problem is that they seemed defeated from minute 1. Only Robinson showed, even without playing a perfect match, the concentration and will needed in such complicated games. The tactical use of the foot was a huge diference betweet both teams: while SA showed they have many players with the hability to use the feet in open plays, England showed the exact oposite and nobody played that role efficiently. If Ollie Barkley dont return for the match against Samoa, I think England would be in some serious trouble.
South Africa is really scaring me now, they are going to give a great battle for the Championship (against the other 3N teams, I think). No hope for the rest uf us.
South Africa is really scaring me now, they are going to give a great battle for the Championship (against the other 3N teams, I think). No hope for the rest uf us.
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xparker
Guest
I think the boks played superbly, i think the whole backline really proved alot of people wrong, i would still like to see us find a more creative flyhalf than butch but I dont think Andre Petorius is the answer and to be honest I dont see anyone else on the horizon except maybe Peter Grant, why he wasnt given a chance in the Trinations is beyond me
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Fa'atau82
Guest
All i can say after seeing the game is that England did not have a single attacking idea in their heads and that South Africa barely had to break a sweat for the win.
South Africa should be very happy. 36-0 is an excellent result, but they will be disappointed that England just did not give them a game, after all that is the point of winning against a team like England.
Effectively, the South Africa team might as well have played the USA for the performance England gave.
My summary of England last night is this.
- Absolutely no attacking flair
- Lack of spirit and team cohesion
- Too many 'big' names not performing
- Little cohesion between back and forwards
- No real standouts at 9, 10 or 15.
- Poor squad depth with too many past-it test players, i.e Dallaglio, Vickery.
South Africa should be very happy. 36-0 is an excellent result, but they will be disappointed that England just did not give them a game, after all that is the point of winning against a team like England.
Effectively, the South Africa team might as well have played the USA for the performance England gave.
My summary of England last night is this.
- Absolutely no attacking flair
- Lack of spirit and team cohesion
- Too many 'big' names not performing
- Little cohesion between back and forwards
- No real standouts at 9, 10 or 15.
- Poor squad depth with too many past-it test players, i.e Dallaglio, Vickery.
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Bullitt
Guest
What have you been smoking? Didn't you see Robinson until he was pulled up with his leg?
If there was anyone in the England team who did standout, it was the man at 15.
Please. The public will ignore rugby if the national side loses to Samoa and get embarassed by South Africa. The Premiership will see a significant drop in attendance. There is a relationship and it's just cause and effect.
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The Premiership will se a massive drop in atttendence this year anyway because the 2nd biggest supported side was religated while Leeds and their 2 1/2 fans won promotion, so expect there to be attendence figures down around overall 150,000-200,000 this season.
Propper premiership fans, which are 90% of them, couldn't give a monkeys about the England performance as regard to supporting the local side. The mentality of Club > Country is rife.
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BokMagic
Guest
Well noted QK. Perhaps one of the reasons why England did their guard of honour thingey at the end for the dirty, cheating, cheapshot-taking Boks...
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Fa'atau82
Guest
Sorry, that was my error. Robinson had a good game, although for most of it he was just having to wipe up mess after mess. No disrespect to Robinson, but he stoodout because everyone else was just so limp and spiritless. He didnt stand out for anything else other than his 110% effort and commitance to the game.
I felt sorry for him, as he worked like a mule and got absolutely nothing in return apart from a standing ovation.
What i mean't was that Robinson shouldn't have been playing at fullback for the simple reason we saw last night that he was the most attacking player we had on the park, and he can't really do anything from fullback. He is a better winger IMHO, and we didn't have a genuine fullback last night, but someone who can play fullback very well.
If that makes any sense..
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THE CHIROPRACTOR101
Guest
good job on england!..they deserved that beat down for not turning up to play!..congrats south africa
trinations >>> 6nations x30million
trinations >>> 6nations x30million
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SaintsFan_Webby
Guest
Words failed me last night, but sleeping on it doesn't help much. The most enjoyable moment for me was seeing a guy that I know in the crowd. And the thought of Andy Farrell never stepping near an England shirt again once the World Cup is over.
Robinson put in his best performance for years, Lewsey tackled like a demon and Gomersall did an excellent job after he came on. In the pack, Rees and Easter were alright. Other than that there really are no positives.
Cipriani, Abendanon, Simpson-Daniel, Flood, Geraghty, Allen, Lamb, Palmer, Croft, Haskell, Skirving, Forrester, Ward-Smith - there are countless numbers of English players who will turn out for there clubs today, but deserve to be in France ahead of utter turds like Jamie Noon.
Another point - I fully support the sacking of Ashton in the near future. Results were never this bad under Andy Robinson! Everyone keeps going on about how he is a wonderful coach, but sadly there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Not only are England showing no flair whatsoever, but he is constantly making wrong decisions. Only bringing two number 10s; leaving a lot of young players at home in favour of experience; substituting Rees instead of Corry last night - everything decision, from the largest to the smallest has been terrible. He may be the nicest, most honest guy on the planet, but he's done nothing to show why he should be retained as England's coach.
Robinson put in his best performance for years, Lewsey tackled like a demon and Gomersall did an excellent job after he came on. In the pack, Rees and Easter were alright. Other than that there really are no positives.
Cipriani, Abendanon, Simpson-Daniel, Flood, Geraghty, Allen, Lamb, Palmer, Croft, Haskell, Skirving, Forrester, Ward-Smith - there are countless numbers of English players who will turn out for there clubs today, but deserve to be in France ahead of utter turds like Jamie Noon.
Another point - I fully support the sacking of Ashton in the near future. Results were never this bad under Andy Robinson! Everyone keeps going on about how he is a wonderful coach, but sadly there is absolutely no evidence to support it. Not only are England showing no flair whatsoever, but he is constantly making wrong decisions. Only bringing two number 10s; leaving a lot of young players at home in favour of experience; substituting Rees instead of Corry last night - everything decision, from the largest to the smallest has been terrible. He may be the nicest, most honest guy on the planet, but he's done nothing to show why he should be retained as England's coach.
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Bomber
Guest
First post here from a very proud Saffa. As close to clinical as I've ever seen the 'Boks play
Quite impressed too at Jake and John Smit not getting carried away post-match.
Keep focussed, keep our feet on the ground and we may yet realise the 2007 Dream!
Quite impressed too at Jake and John Smit not getting carried away post-match.
Keep focussed, keep our feet on the ground and we may yet realise the 2007 Dream!
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Dmx#1
Guest
What i mean't was that Robinson shouldn't have been playing at fullback for the simple reason we saw last night that he was the most attacking player we had on the park, and he can't really do anything from fullback. He is a better winger IMHO, and we didn't have a genuine fullback last night, but someone who can play fullback very well..
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Nah i have to disagree with that. Even though Robinson is better at winger England needed to give Robinson as much ball as possible. If he was at wing he would have got f*** all ball
plus they needed to be effective at counter attacking and judging by the way England played, no one else would have been as effective in that position.I don't understand why England have all these old heads in the team. Sure if they brought more young players they probbably would still get smashed but at least it would benefit in the long term.
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alcfof
Guest
Yestrerday, South Africa had developped a very well playing game as English team that are big problems in defense.
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getofmeland
Guest
Webby I would have to agree with you there, I have seen Ashton do wonders at club level especially with Bath... But Internationally he has made England inconsistent, but part of me wonders how many of these decisions have been made above him, on who to take... I think the axe should swing higher and not stop until there is a full clear out of the RFU stuffed shirts, We need fresh blood in the England setup, because whoever you have as coach of the England international team, will NOT be able to do their Job properly while Rob Andrew and Co are in that position... English Rugby is in a bad state, while the Saxons are flying, we need a clear out of the old boys and insert some new Blood in the setup...
This includes coaching and everything... We need to find a captain who will stand up and shout, swear and scare the crap out of the players, because I bet that didn't happen last night, I bet the sat there with their heads in their hands in silent... IF Johnno had been in that dressing room there would of been noise, the players who didn't perform would of been ******** themselves.
England need to seriously go away from this game and remember it as the day that England as a nation and the world saw the demise of English Rugby, they need to remember it so it doesn't happen again... They will also need to go and train like warriors and go out with their head held high and show the world that was England's Lowest point and that the only way now is Upwards, the next games against Samoa and Tonga is crucial, they need to place 30+ points on them both...
This includes coaching and everything... We need to find a captain who will stand up and shout, swear and scare the crap out of the players, because I bet that didn't happen last night, I bet the sat there with their heads in their hands in silent... IF Johnno had been in that dressing room there would of been noise, the players who didn't perform would of been ******** themselves.
England need to seriously go away from this game and remember it as the day that England as a nation and the world saw the demise of English Rugby, they need to remember it so it doesn't happen again... They will also need to go and train like warriors and go out with their head held high and show the world that was England's Lowest point and that the only way now is Upwards, the next games against Samoa and Tonga is crucial, they need to place 30+ points on them both...
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Fa'atau82
Guest
It is time for England to re-address and sort out their future. Since 2003, the team has gone from bad to worse and England realistically had little chance of retaining the Webb Ellis.
Obviously you play to win, but taking guys like Dallaglio and Vickery has backfired on Ashton and he could have used a player like Tom Palmer or James Haskell last night.
I can't really call what England did last night as crap. This has been coming for an awful long time, and in no way, shape or form is it a surprise.
They didn't play badly really, they just gave the performance that Portugal would against the All Blacks.. which is defend as much as you can and try to clear your lines.
England are not a bad team, they just have so little chemistry, drive, purpose and motivation in this squad.
I think England should realistically keep Ashton, as really England's problems go deeper than him and he can't really get any lower in terms of performance. It is time to rebuild and use the youth coming through.
Sure England might not win a few games for a while as they'd expect, but these new guys have got to be bloodied into the team.
My first squad i'd pick for the first major test after the RWC would be..
Cipriani, Abendanon, Simpson-Daniel, Lewsey, Tait, Waldouck, Hipkiss, Allen, Strettle, Sackey, Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson, Barkley, Gomarsall, Richards, Perry, Ward-Smith, Forrester, Haskell, Corry, Easter, Rees, Moody, Palmer, Borthwick, Shaw, Kay, Stevens, Freshwater, Mears, Sheridan.
Needs some more Hookers and Props. I didn't like the look of Chuter last night.
Obviously you play to win, but taking guys like Dallaglio and Vickery has backfired on Ashton and he could have used a player like Tom Palmer or James Haskell last night.
I can't really call what England did last night as crap. This has been coming for an awful long time, and in no way, shape or form is it a surprise.
They didn't play badly really, they just gave the performance that Portugal would against the All Blacks.. which is defend as much as you can and try to clear your lines.
England are not a bad team, they just have so little chemistry, drive, purpose and motivation in this squad.
I think England should realistically keep Ashton, as really England's problems go deeper than him and he can't really get any lower in terms of performance. It is time to rebuild and use the youth coming through.
Sure England might not win a few games for a while as they'd expect, but these new guys have got to be bloodied into the team.
My first squad i'd pick for the first major test after the RWC would be..
Cipriani, Abendanon, Simpson-Daniel, Lewsey, Tait, Waldouck, Hipkiss, Allen, Strettle, Sackey, Flood, Geraghty, Wilkinson, Barkley, Gomarsall, Richards, Perry, Ward-Smith, Forrester, Haskell, Corry, Easter, Rees, Moody, Palmer, Borthwick, Shaw, Kay, Stevens, Freshwater, Mears, Sheridan.
Needs some more Hookers and Props. I didn't like the look of Chuter last night.
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danny
Guest
Changes need to be made throughout the whole sport. Unless priority is given to the England team over club sides, results such as last nights will be the norm.
While I agree that Ashton is not the man for the job and our selection policy for this tournament was conservative to say the least,its the overall picture not the detail that is important if we are going to compete at the next world cup.
How on earth did Rob Andrew get his job at the RFU? While he was a good player what has he achieved in management ? We need winners throught the whole structure. I dont care if the new man in charge is foreign we just need someone with the vision to take us forward.
Players must be centrally contracted so we can develop a squad without them being hammered week in week out. The number of games they play in must be limited.
Im a Gloucester season ticket holder and i dont want to see my team lose a lot of its best players for large parts of the season but unless something is done interest in Rugby will dwindle and our clubs will be affected anyway.
While I agree that Ashton is not the man for the job and our selection policy for this tournament was conservative to say the least,its the overall picture not the detail that is important if we are going to compete at the next world cup.
How on earth did Rob Andrew get his job at the RFU? While he was a good player what has he achieved in management ? We need winners throught the whole structure. I dont care if the new man in charge is foreign we just need someone with the vision to take us forward.
Players must be centrally contracted so we can develop a squad without them being hammered week in week out. The number of games they play in must be limited.
Im a Gloucester season ticket holder and i dont want to see my team lose a lot of its best players for large parts of the season but unless something is done interest in Rugby will dwindle and our clubs will be affected anyway.
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Bullitt
Guest
In an ideal world though, a good England 22 would look something along the lines of;
1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Palmer
5. Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Easter
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Chris Ashton (trust me on this one)
12. Hipkiss
13. Clarke
14. Cueto
15. Cipriani
16. ***terall
17. Barnard
18. (put 2nd row here)
19. Forrester
20. Paul Hodgson
21. Geherethy
22. Abanamamamanamanamanamanamanamanamon (do-doo-de-do-do)
How many of those players actually made selection?
1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Palmer
5. Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Easter
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Chris Ashton (trust me on this one)
12. Hipkiss
13. Clarke
14. Cueto
15. Cipriani
16. ***terall
17. Barnard
18. (put 2nd row here)
19. Forrester
20. Paul Hodgson
21. Geherethy
22. Abanamamamanamanamanamanamanamanamon (do-doo-de-do-do)
How many of those players actually made selection?
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Sorp111
Guest
Had to go out and get very drunk after watching that performance. Well done SA - but England - ugh. After about 65 minutes i wanted us (England) to get blanked because i did not want to hear Ashton/players take any crumb of comfort from a late try. However, i read this morning that Ashton said it was a better performance than the USA game - he really is scraping the bottom of the barrel. If losing to Samoa is the price English rugby has to pay to get rid of Ashton, Andrew, Baron et al then it is worth paying.
As for the players most of the 'veterans' will retire from international rugby after this world cup and i hope never to see Perry, Farrell or Noon in an England shirt again. Was hoping for a performance from Sackey however in defence he looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights.
As for the players most of the 'veterans' will retire from international rugby after this world cup and i hope never to see Perry, Farrell or Noon in an England shirt again. Was hoping for a performance from Sackey however in defence he looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights.
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BokMagic
Guest
Well I don`t agree with Ashton being fired right now. Even though this might be a difficult thing to fathom, but you can only grow from defeat. And you do need consistency in your management and selections in order to move forward, long-term.
If you take a look at Graham Henry`s first year in charge of the AB`s- they lost to both SA and Aus in the tri-nations of 2004, and ended up last on the log. But Henry basically stuck to his players, tweaked the side here and there, bringing in players that were good enough to make a major difference, and expanded on the basics of rugby in a very simple game plan. The result- well look at the rankings!
The same goes for Clive Woodward- he had 5 very lean years in charge, before getting a core of experienced veterans together that were undoubtably the best in the business between 200-2003.
And the same goes for Alex Ferguson with ManUre in football- he went something like 7 or 8 years without a single trophy, before becoming the dominant force in British football.
No, what you guys need to do is to start at the very top, with the RFU. What are their attitudes towards international rugby? Is there any emphasis whatsoever on the development of players through the youth structures at the clubs, or are they more interested in getting their ready-made stars, at the end of their careers for the SH superpowers?
Seriously, this is not a dig at the Premiership clubs, nor at NH rugby in general, but when last did England feature at age-group level, in the u/19`s or u/21`s? Yet every year, it seems to be NZ, SA and Aus who battle it out for the top honours at age-group RWC level. This is not because we are superior athletes or anything like that, simply because the emphasis is on youth development. This in turn, leads to a fresh new intake of exciting, home-grown talent for the S14 teams virtually every year. And once these players graduate to the test team, most of the older folks move up north.
So basically, this is, for me at least, where the rot starts. Put more emphasis on your youth structures, give the international team precedense over the club sides, and ensure a continuity of coaching philosophy at both age-group and international level.
If you take a look at Graham Henry`s first year in charge of the AB`s- they lost to both SA and Aus in the tri-nations of 2004, and ended up last on the log. But Henry basically stuck to his players, tweaked the side here and there, bringing in players that were good enough to make a major difference, and expanded on the basics of rugby in a very simple game plan. The result- well look at the rankings!
The same goes for Clive Woodward- he had 5 very lean years in charge, before getting a core of experienced veterans together that were undoubtably the best in the business between 200-2003.
And the same goes for Alex Ferguson with ManUre in football- he went something like 7 or 8 years without a single trophy, before becoming the dominant force in British football.
No, what you guys need to do is to start at the very top, with the RFU. What are their attitudes towards international rugby? Is there any emphasis whatsoever on the development of players through the youth structures at the clubs, or are they more interested in getting their ready-made stars, at the end of their careers for the SH superpowers?
Seriously, this is not a dig at the Premiership clubs, nor at NH rugby in general, but when last did England feature at age-group level, in the u/19`s or u/21`s? Yet every year, it seems to be NZ, SA and Aus who battle it out for the top honours at age-group RWC level. This is not because we are superior athletes or anything like that, simply because the emphasis is on youth development. This in turn, leads to a fresh new intake of exciting, home-grown talent for the S14 teams virtually every year. And once these players graduate to the test team, most of the older folks move up north.
So basically, this is, for me at least, where the rot starts. Put more emphasis on your youth structures, give the international team precedense over the club sides, and ensure a continuity of coaching philosophy at both age-group and international level.
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Prestwick
Guest
My reaction:
On a serious note, I don't think firing yet another coach will solve anything. The frustrating thing is that the young talent is there, honestly, it is! As Fa'atau82 said there needs to be a team with chemistry and real camaraderie. The current England side, cobbled together in the space of three or four months has none of that lets face it.
Its time to settle on a side after this World Cup which is young and fresh and develop it. Sod New Zealand if they complain about sending such lambs to slaughter down under for next years Summer Internationals, our priority should be England and England first and blooding vast numbers of young hopefuls is one step towards that goal.
On a serious note, I don't think firing yet another coach will solve anything. The frustrating thing is that the young talent is there, honestly, it is! As Fa'atau82 said there needs to be a team with chemistry and real camaraderie. The current England side, cobbled together in the space of three or four months has none of that lets face it.
Its time to settle on a side after this World Cup which is young and fresh and develop it. Sod New Zealand if they complain about sending such lambs to slaughter down under for next years Summer Internationals, our priority should be England and England first and blooding vast numbers of young hopefuls is one step towards that goal.
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I Bleed Black
Guest
2 words; Rob Andrew.
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I could suggest that your clubs buying international SH players to bolster your stocks is going to make the problem worse. Old argument I know but, SA and NZ are dominating - and they play national players in domestic comps - coincidence?? My gut feeling is English rugger will go down the same track as English football - Looks like a great team, but never fills expectations. (I know... rich coming from a choking kiwi!!)
