England vs New Zealand - 19/11/22

[Kiwiwomble]

So…we made mistakes…lots…and I think 8 cross field kicks 2-3 of which came off…but I don't think we were horrible…but the score definitely flattered us, one try off an intercept against the run of play, and another off a moment of brilliance (I think he was just offside)…I really want actual dominance

Full credit to England, that was 15mins of pretty dominant play…I would have kept playing but I guess smith just didn't want to push their luck

 

[BPM]

It's not even an average NZ team though. It's a poor NZ team that should be put away.

Surely they'd be saying exactly the same things about us right now?

It really is time for Nowell to be put out to pasture. His contribution today was pathetic and that's being kind. FFS give Freeman or Radwan a game against SA.
Billy is so ineffective now, even his rampaging runs are stopped dead. Simmonds carried better today. JVP had a bit of a shocker, but he's still green at international level and has plenty of time. Youngs had one of his better days, and Farrell worked hard. Mako is just a penalty machine in the scrum. Shame Marler seems to have made himself unavailable?
All in all, a decent 15 minutes doesn't mask a poor first half.
Once again, EJ has wasted these AI's. This was the time to experiment and try fringe players, not keep picking Billy, Nowell, May, Farrell, Mako,etc.
Coles gets a game, then dropped from the 23, why? Give him a few games alongside Ribbands
and drop Hill/Itoje. We know what they can do.
I'm still wondering what Lawrence, Marchant , Freeman, Radwan have to do to get a game. Marchant has certainly upset EJ somehow.

I agree on most of the above.

Mako made a positive impact this week, but was awful last week. On balance, I feel like both Vunipolas could be put out to pasture. Agree on Nowell too.

I think it would have been a bit too experimental to play Coles and Ribbans together. Had Eddie picked two players with a combined total of 3 caps to play vs. Retallick and Whitelock, I think most people would have been very worried. Both have had a really positive impact and I think they've pretty much inked themselves in, so job done IMO.

On the last sentence, the only one who definitely seems to be permanently out of favour is Marchant. Lawrence is in great form since joining Bath, but prior to that was either injured or out of form. Hopefully he's winning Eddie over again, but it's not completely crazy that he wasn't picked for the AIs. At least Freeman and Radwan are getting the call-ups.

 

[Scotty]

Simmonds is one of my favourite players but id much rather Willis in. Fan of Nowell but he just isnt performing and id much rather Freeman. Billy isnt having much of an impact and id like to see Dombrandt in with Willis and Curry(but not in the squad so he wont be), Manu just isnt having an Impact like he used to and it blunts our attack, Slade deserves a start although i dont like the Smith Faz Slade very much.

As many have said there are quite a few players who arnt performing yet keep staying in. Im glad for the comeback but non of these players really helped with it.

 

[BPM]

Yep. Agree with all of that.

Tuilagi not worth his place at all. For all the talk of what he can do, the more important thing is that he hasn't performed at that level in a LONG time and quite possibly won't ever do so again.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm going to buck the trend here with one thing, and one thing only.
I think Manu is still worth his place in the side (but not guaranteed it).

He doesn't make those busting breaks any more, and has lost a yard of pace, but, he still brings defenders onto him, creating space for others, and he still reads the game in attack pretty well.

Now, he should be under pressure, but there's still not many (any?) who scare defenders like that, even though he's typically tackled by the first (often "and second") man - and if we insist on playing the eminently ignorable Farrell at IC, we simply have to have an OC who attracts those eyes and keeps defenders on their toes.
JJ could do that, with his pace and footwork, Manu does it with his reputation (and is still capable of busting through if the defence isn't nailing it). I think Lawrence, Marchant or JJr could all do that too, but it would take 6-8 tests of purple patch rugby to earn that right.

 

[Scotty]

Yep. Agree with all of that.

Tuilagi not worth his place at all. For all the talk of what he can do, the more important thing is that he hasn't performed at that level in a LONG time and quite possibly won't ever do so again.

What do we do in the centres next week? I dont necessarily think hes not worth his place. Smith Manu Slade works, Faz Manu Slade works but Smith Faz Manu doesnt its just pass pass crash. Theres no deception coming from Faz or Manu.


I know what i want to happened but we only have Faz Manu Slade Porter and Will Joseph so whats the best of a bad situation? Slade has to start IMO he's earned it more than any other.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We've probably seen the very best of May but he showed in flashes why pace matters, using his speed to get himself out of tight spots and the team on the front foot. Assuming fitness (!) May and Watson are first choices by a distance. Arundell is next in line. I'd also be wanting to have a decent look at Radwan / Freeman over Nowell too. We have some potentially exciting options should any of them stay out of A&E for 5 minutes.

Manu evidently isn't the force of old. He made one nice break but was otherwise read pretty easily. Squad place for sure but shouldn't be a guaranteed starter.

Curry has evidently bulked up which has improved some elements of the game but possibly to the detriment of what he was best at. That said I thought he definitely had one of his better recent games yesterday. Not quite sure where Jones is trying to go with the back row. But at 8, when available, it's definitely Dombrandt or Mercer with their extra creativity and higher work rates for me.

Farrell looks awful at 12 when he's just hoofing it, but his passing game can be pretty effective if runners are giving him options. Loosen the shackles a bit and it will benefit the team.

 

[Jimbo]

I'm going to buck the trend here with one thing, and one thing only.
I think Manu is still worth his place in the side (but not guaranteed it).

He doesn't make those busting breaks any more, and has lost a yard of pace, but, he still brings defenders onto him, creating space for others, and he still reads the game in attack pretty well.

Now, he should be under pressure, but there's still not many (any?) who scare defenders like that, even though he's typically tackled by the first (often "and second") man - and if we insist on playing the eminently ignorable Farrell at IC, we simply have to have an OC who attracts those eyes and keeps defenders on their toes.
JJ could do that, with his pace and footwork, Manu does it with his reputation (and is still capable of busting through if the defence isn't nailing it). I think Lawrence, Marchant or JJr could all do that too, but it would take 6-8 tests of purple patch rugby to earn that right.

I agree I am not convinced he isn't still capable (maybe not to the same degree) but maybe holding back a little even if subconsciously, couldn't blame him with injury, I wouldn't put it past him to find some of it again at some point )if he can stay for), as long as Faz plays at 12 you really limit the options as you only have a ball player in him puts so much more pressure on 10 & 13 to actually create, I'd love to start giving Marchant and Laurence some descent game time not sure they would work together but having them both as options is a step up and would generally cause defence's to think and not just ignore IC, really that needs to happen now though before the WC can't be too many games between now and then, the balance is just all wrong currently.

Whilst the performance wasn't great it wasn't so much that England only had 10 - 15 minutes of good play, they were ontop for most of the second half but failed to make it tell on the scoreboard until the final 10 - 15, it is nice for them to actually come back one feature of the core of this team is an inability to turn the tide once it goes against them.

 

[Jakedood]

We need to get rid of Billy, Nowell, Mako and Manu to start. I'd also say Hill, but no obvious replacement in the wider squad who I think would be consistently better. Possibly May as well who I think has occasional flashes, but also not much else. Sinckler would go for me as well if we had a viable alternative. Itoje needs a kick up the arse as he seems to have fallen off. We need a proper balanced back row. Tbh I am trying to remember the last time I saw Curry win a turnover at the ruck, he definitely doesn't seem to be at the level he was previously. Simmonds isn't a 6. I'd also still prefer Dombrandt as I think Simmonds is a luxury player. Smith and Farrell don't work. Pick one or the other. No major issues with JVP and Steward.

Wait what?

Okay so some I agree with, Nowell has been very poor, and can't get stepped so easily by a winger who's only option is to turn inside, and also one of Clarke's mobility. He's just not athletic enough
Billy had multiple opportunities one v one Vs smaller forwards and backs, and got chopped at source. He needs to be breaking tackles or his USP isn't there, and he gave away some really thick penalties yesterday
Though to drop mako after yesterday's tbf to him... Bloody hell, he'd be better at 8 than Billy, he hit great lines, lovely soft hands
Curry hasn't been as much a threat at the breakdown recently but definitely more involved there in the second half, unlucky not to nab a few turnovers
May was outstanding yesterday and I can't really understand any argument against that. Brilliant awareness and elusiveness to stay infield at times, great under high ball and in broken field was England's best player for first 70 mins
Smith Farrell is starting to get there... Smith looked considerably better than last week, and his pass timing was magnificent, I think games like that give him more confidence to really stamp his authority on a game
One thing I would note is how Willis came on and England's speed of ball improved drastically. Some of his clearouts were beautiful

 

[BPM]

Agreed on all barring Mako.

No question that he was very good this week, but that's become the exception rather than he rule. In recent times, he's been more of a liability than an asset.

Such a shame Willis isn't a permanent fixture on one of the flanks.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Jones has been in the job for seven years today, according to BT Sport.

Blimey.

 

[traczir]

En tout cas, on a bien rigolé, vu le pauvre rugby qui a été servi... merci les gars, le Tournoi et la Coupe du Monde vont être interessants
Whatever we had such laughs down here watching this poor rugby... thank you lads, this will be an interesting 6Nations and World Cup

 

[Bada-Bing!]

En tout cas, on a bien rigolé, vu le pauvre rugby qui a été servi... merci les gars, le Tournoi et la Coupe du Monde vont être interessants
Whatever we had such laghs down here watching this poor rugby... thank you lads, this will be an interesting Tournoi and World Cup

Allez Les Bleus.

 

[traczir]

Ah, et encore une chose... qui pourra maintenant prétendre que Marcus Smith possède un système nerveux central?
Ah, just one more thing... who can now pretend that Marcus Smith has a central nervous system?

A bientôt les amis
See you soon pals

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The guy today is a 21 year old who honestly just had his worst game by miles against a top team.
Of course you would pick with 50 plus caps and a B&I lions tour over him...

My point being the English union have let very viable English options at 9 slip through their hands and spent the best part of a decade looking for someone to do a halfway decent job. I don't mind Care, but the rest are barely adequate. I'm not knocking the coach trying a young lad, better than sticking with known (and failed) quantities.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Dallaglio having a senior citizen's moment in the ST mixing up Raynal and Brace as referee.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

My point being the English union have let very viable English options at 9 slip through their hands and spent the best part of a decade looking for someone to do a halfway decent job. I don't mind Care, but the rest are barely adequate. I'm not knocking the coach trying a young lad, better than sticking with known (and failed) quantities.

Care played worse than JVP in the Australia tour though.

 

[BPM]

I'm not sure he did … JvP had an absolute mare.

Given Care's experience and domestic form, he definitely massively underperformed in Australia but IIRC, he didn't give away an intercept try for example.

 

[BPM]

Dallaglio having a senior citizen's moment in the ST mixing up Raynal and Brace as referee.

Dallaglio is permanently stuck in a loop of 'senior moments'. Great player. Terrible pundit and even worse commentator.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm not sure he did … JvP had an absolute mare.

Given Care's experience and domestic form, he definitely massively underperformed in Australia but IIRC, he didn't give away an intercept try for example.

In Australia JVP completely outplayed Care I thought it was universally accepted?