England vs Italy - 10/03/2013

[psychic duck]

Varndell - Defensive capabilities of my penis

Hasn't stopped Ashton keep being selected. And unlike Ashton of late, Varndell has been scoring tries and is the leading try scorer in the league.

Also didn't he make the tackle that saved Wasps from going down on Sam Vesty last season? I'll assume that was an exception to the rule regarding his tackling though.

 

[mstar]

[Tom Croft] I have, lots of high level coaches obviously rate him. Whenever he's played for England he has seemed to me to be very average at the breakdown/tackle. I'm not trying to take away from his obvious strengths in broken play and the lineout.

I actually think your right on this, he isn't as good as Robshaw/Wood/Haskell at the breakdown. He doesn't have that dog fight on the deck game (that wood and robshaw do soo well). But he excells at all other variables which overall he is a more dangerous player then all other backrows hence why he was so good as a Lion backrow.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hasn't stopped Ashton keep being selected. And unlike Ashton of late, Varndell has been scoring tries and is the leading try scorer in the league.

Also didn't he make the tackle that saved Wasps from going down on Sam Vesty last season? I'll assume that was an exception to the rule regarding his tackling though.

Varndell's defence has improved drastically since his move to Wasps. Don't get me wrong, he's not the best in the league, but he's certainly not the worst.
Varndell's been better than Ashton for a while now, and is a better defender. Only thing Ashton has over him is the past form/experience for England - can't think of any other reason he's starting every game, it's certainly not because he's the best EQP winger.

 

[ratsapprentice]

saved Wasps from going down on Sam Vesty last season

Dear god....

 

[j'nuh]

Biggs - Meh, maybe, plenty of wings been tried
Varndell - Defensive capabilities of my penis
JSD - Not the future, although still unlucky
Sharples - Tried, didn't do enough
Monye - Unlucky, but can't complain that much given his England career to date
Twelvetrees - Is in the match-day ****ing squad. Hardly snubbed!
Allen - Rightfully stuck in the queue behind Barritt and Twelvetrees
Burns - Again, in the match-day squad - first game back from injury too. Lancaster isn't Jesus, he can't magically heal players to give them more games.

Biggs has been in great form this season. Players who break out into their best form in their mid-to-late-20s have a tendency to be ignored by some. Like Hopper - it's remarkable his progress over the last 2 years, and he's unfortunate not to make the Saxons.
Varndell might not be the absolute best defensively, but when you look at Ashton missing tackles and Brown being burned for speed (eg see Hogg speed past him in the run-up to Scotland's first try), you wonder whether he would be a step backwards. Improved this year too.
JSD can make the WC. Therefore he must be considered.
Sharples impressed in his first game in the autumn, then had one 5/10 game after and was instantly dropped. He's not been in the greatest form since, but he should have been getting some recognition last year.
Monye is in great form and fits the game plan very well.
Twelvetrees was snubbed in the sense that he put in a fantastic game against Scotland and then a decent one against Ireland and then didn't appear for a minute against France and wasn't given back to Gloucester despite being on the bench on weeks either side of the break. Maybe not snubbed, but definitely mistreated.
Allen - fair play. He's been very unfortunate tbh. Should have been getting a number of caps under MJ.
Burns should have been accumulating caps all the way through last year.

Mako's discipline has been crap, Marler's been in fine form. I'm happy Mako's getting a shot, he's done some great stuff - but he's not laid down the definitive case for a start against the other guy.

I've have liked to have seen Billy start, but he too is something of a penalty magnet. This England side lives and dies by its discipline in its own half - naivety of that sort needs to be stamped out. As it is, we've trialled what happens when Morgan goes off in games very well - and Morgan probably would be the guy to be subbed off 90pc of the time.

And yes, Croft straight back in. I apologise for the following argument, as I hate it when people use it on me, but don't you think the fact that Graham Rowntree and Lancaster have brought him back into the fold as soon as possible might indicate that he's a better forward than you think? It's not like they haven't made it very clear what they want in terms of work ethic, ground work and so on.

I like the pack. Vunipola and Youngs add huge carrying potential, counter-balancing the more work horse nature of the back row, and everyone there will make ground if they hit the ball at pace. Subs bench can bring some real energy to it as well. The backs, well I'm resigned to the problems in the backs, it's a conservative back-three but hopefully they'll start to fix it over the coming year. Hopefully the half-backs can ignite something.

Fair play. I sound a little bah humbug at times, but I must admit I've been very impressed with the pack, and it's improving all the time. Mostly right selections are being made, although I hope Armitage will come back to England/get a release clause with Toulon and try win a spot. Still a long way to go in terms of depth though, but Lancaster/Rowntree don't have control over that.

I'm just worried about the backline. Too much of a conservative and Sarries slant. Proof: Tomkins called up to England. I don't expect England to deviate much from this backline for a long time to come and Tuilagi is our only real threat. May cannot be ignored in current form for much longer. He should be given a go in Argentina.

 

[Zed]

England need to give Wade a shot. His attacking prowess is worth the gamble despite his defensive weaknesses.

 

[Peat]

Bah, just exited my own post.

Short version - Just because Ashton's poo doesn't mean Varndell should be tolerated, improved as he is. I'm not happy with Ashton, but he's getting special treatment on account of being England's only proven try scoring wing (according to the papers) - I don't agree with that, I'd like to see other wings, but I don't think any of the others can complain too much about the current situation. Interesting that both Varndell and Wade have mentioned things that the Bomber gave them to work on.

Unfortunately, we will see Tuilagi on the wing next. I'd put money on 36 on early for one of the back three with Manu on the wing.

They all started out as 6's I believe, and they don't play traditional 7 roles. That role being, in my mind, more pace compared to the 6 and better ability over the ball.

Where a player starts out =/= their best position in the senior game. And no, they're not traditional 7s - but the game moves on; the fact we talk about ability over the ball as being part of a 7 is part of that. Personally, I look more for continuity work and support running. Again, neither man is traditional, but neither man is without those skills and when a great many teams play with 7s in the general model of Wood/Robshaw I don't think they should be dismissed as non-specialist 7s. Ironically, both Croft and Haskell possess more of the traditional 7 skills in my mind.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think England should aim to put Italy away by 16+ as that is what Wales managed. Also 12T should be given plenty of time on the field.

 

[Ospreylian]

It worries me that Lancaster pays that much attention to Ashton's try-scoring record for England. Yes he may have 17 tries in 30 England appearances, but most of those were when he first came onto the international scene. How is Lancaster not seeing the one try in eight six nations games stat? That's glaring.

If Ashton can score 17 tries in 30 appearances, think what someone like Wade or May could achieve, if given the opportunity.

 

[SelimNiai]

It worries me that Lancaster pays that much attention to Ashton's try-scoring record for England. Yes he may have 17 tries in 30 England appearances, but most of those were when he first came onto the international scene. How is Lancaster not seeing the one try in eight six nations games stat? That's glaring.

If Ashton can score 17 tries in 30 appearances, think what someone like Wade or May could achieve, if given the opportunity.

Thing is he could quite easily score a couple tomorrow and his form issues will be papered over by the coaches, media and some of the fans.

 

[Zed]

I doubt very much Lancaster would put Tuilagi on the wing, it would be foolish if he did. He's needed to suck in defenders creating space out wide for the back 3. Barret & 36 are fine, but neither of those players are going to attract multiple defenders. As far as wingers go, I would agree with giving Ashton more time. He has not really been given much decent ball in space. Yes he's missed tackles, but then the guys looking to replace him aren't particularly renowned for their defence anyway. Mike Brown has to go at some point. He's a good solid player, but is just not a winger and lacks that potency needed to succeed at the top level.

 

[Peat]

It worries me that Lancaster pays that much attention to Ashton's try-scoring record for England. Yes he may have 17 tries in 30 England appearances, but most of those were when he first came onto the international scene. How is Lancaster not seeing the one try in eight six nations games stat? That's glaring.

If Ashton can score 17 tries in 30 appearances, think what someone like Wade or May could achieve, if given the opportunity.

That should not be the worrying thing. What should be the worrying thing - imo - is that Lancaster seems to have paid little attention to the way Ashton scored those tries, or little interest in deliberately recreating the chances. If he's not going to play to his strengths, he shouldn't bother. If he is, then Ashton deserves faith - but he hasn't yet, so why assume he'd do so now?

Zed - Not saying you're wrong necessarily, but Lancaster has name-checked it as a choice. My personal take would be Brown to full-back, then start digging around the pool of genuinely lethal back three guys we have.

 

[Ospreylian]

That should not be the worrying thing. What should be the worrying thing - imo - is that Lancaster seems to have paid little attention to the way Ashton scored those tries, or little interest in deliberately recreating the chances. If he's not going to play to his strengths, he shouldn't bother. If he is, then Ashton deserves faith - but he hasn't yet, so why assume he'd do so now?

Yeah I know Ashton is renowned for his support play, especially linking with the likes of Flood in the past (so maybe he will play a bit better tomorrow and bring this more into his game if Flood allows him), but I wonder if it simply is a case of him just being out of form. Sure, he hasn't had much good ball to work with, what with Barritt and Farrell's styles of play making it difficult for the back three to really impose themselves. But all the best wingers make themselves useful all over the field. Take the example of Shane Williams. On top form he would be appearing everywhere, even diving into rucks if there was nobody else about, and acting as scrum-half when Phillips went missing. His defensive game grew rapidly after some minor criticism too, and it always impressed me that a 5ft 8 wing could make try-saving tackles on the likes of Matt Banahan.

When I first saw Ashton I thought he had the potential to become a winger in a similar mold to Shane, he was popping up on runner's shoulders, creating his own breaks and just generally getting involved a lot. But I think there are new players on the scene now who are nipping at his ankles, and I think he knows that one more average-to-bad performance may cost him his place. He just remains anonymous for whole games far too often these days. The reason the likes of George North and Alex Cuthbert are ahead of him in the lions pecking order is because they might have one sole opportunity to make an impact during a tight game and they just appear in the right place at the right time.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is... James Simpson-Daniel ftw.

 

[Saint Matt]

Might've gone with Twelvetrees at 12 ahead of Barritt due to the fact that the latter will have a huge part to play against Wales, and put a big shift in against France. Can see the case for continuity in the centre however.

I agree with the majority, Ashton is fortunate to be in the 15 for tomorrow, but I can see why Lancaster may be wary of changing the back three at this stage in the tournament. Hopefully he answers the critics with a huge performance - something we know he is capable of.

The main concern for me is the balance in the squad, and I highlight the back row in particular. With no natural 8 in the squad, we will be relying on Tom Wood to play at the base for 80 mins. I like Wood, but he is simply not a number 8, and I would prefer to see him elsewhere in the back row.

7 potential blindside's on the 22 - must be some sort of record.

 

[Aedaphon]

Might've gone with Twelvetrees at 12 ahead of Barritt due to the fact that the latter will have a huge part to play against Wales, and put a big shift in against France. Can see the case for continuity in the centre however.

I agree with the majority, Ashton is fortunate to be in the 15 for tomorrow, but I can see why Lancaster may be wary of changing the back three at this stage in the tournament. Hopefully he answers the critics with a huge performance - something we know he is capable of.

The main concern for me is the balance in the squad, and I highlight the back row in particular. With no natural 8 in the squad, we will be relying on Tom Wood to play at the base for 80 mins. I like Wood, but he is simply not a number 8, and I would prefer to see him elsewhere in the back row.

7 potential blindside's on the 22 - must be some sort of record.

It's fine.... We'll welcome Steffon back into the squad eventually

I honestly hope Ashton doesn't score a brace tomorrow. Even scoring a hattrick against Italy does not prove that Ashton has regained the form he had 2 years ago (assuming we win comfortably tomorrow). Ashton has the gas to be an international winger, but honestly his defence, his kicking game, his general skillset and above all his attitude just make me want him out of the squad. He's been given enough opportunities and unless he can pull his weight week in, week out we've got to start looking at other options.

Please can we see May and Wade soon...

 

[Crapspray]

I don't think it's fair to blame all our back three woes on Ashton. In the recent games where England actually attacked and made line-breaks (All Blacks and Scotland) he scored and, had he had another winger playing, against the Springboks he likely would have been a key part in a breakaway try; as it was Mike Brown couldn't keep up. I don't accept that he can't score against good sides. Furthermore, is anyone particularly shocked that a winger scores most of their tries against poor opposition? Both Alex Goode and Mike Brown have yet to score for England, despite the former playing in a BaaBaas game when England scored eight tries, with Ashton scoring three of those.

With Care and Flood starting, against weak opposition, we can get a better gauge of where he is. As the old saying goes; it will neither be as bad, or as good, as first reported.

Finally, we should be looking to include the likes of May and Wade soon anyway, if only to push Ashton and get a second winger into the 23. Lord knows we need a more lethal back line if we really want to claim the World Cup in 2015 is our ambition.

 

[Peat]

Yeah I know Ashton is renowned for his support play, especially linking with the likes of Flood in the past (so maybe he will play a bit better tomorrow and bring this more into his game if Flood allows him), but I wonder if it simply is a case of him just being out of form. Sure, he hasn't had much good ball to work with, what with Barritt and Farrell's styles of play making it difficult for the back three to really impose themselves. But all the best wingers make themselves useful all over the field. Take the example of Shane Williams. On top form he would be appearing everywhere, even diving into rucks if there was nobody else about, and acting as scrum-half when Phillips went missing. His defensive game grew rapidly after some minor criticism too, and it always impressed me that a 5ft 8 wing could make try-saving tackles on the likes of Matt Banahan.

When I first saw Ashton I thought he had the potential to become a winger in a similar mold to Shane, he was popping up on runner's shoulders, creating his own breaks and just generally getting involved a lot. But I think there are new players on the scene now who are nipping at his ankles, and I think he knows that one more average-to-bad performance may cost him his place. He just remains anonymous for whole games far too often these days. The reason the likes of George North and Alex Cuthbert are ahead of him in the lions pecking order is because they might have one sole opportunity to make an impact during a tight game and they just appear in the right place at the right time.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is... James Simpson-Daniel ftw.

Agree with most of that. Thing is, he is getting involved in a lot of places... but not very effectively. Ashton should never turn up at first receiver and take a crash ball - never, ever, ever - but he has. That's a coaching problem, one way or the other, and if the problem is he won't listen he should be dropped. I'd like to see him do less - I'd like to see him genuinely lurk like mad until those opportunities to make an impact occur. But it's not happening for one reason or another. The most likely reason is that's what the coaches want - they want people working really hard and throwing themselves into everything. But Ashton just doesn't seem much good for that.

Part of it is he's not on form - part of it is he's not with the ideal players for him - but I honestly reckon a big part is what the coaches want from their wingers and what Ashton offers is forming too big a divergence.

 

[Aedaphon]

Agree with most of that. Thing is, he is getting involved in a lot of places... but not very effectively. Ashton should never turn up at first receiver and take a crash ball - never, ever, ever - but he has. That's a coaching problem, one way or the other, and if the problem is he won't listen he should be dropped. I'd like to see him do less - I'd like to see him genuinely lurk like mad until those opportunities to make an impact occur. But it's not happening for one reason or another. The most likely reason is that's what the coaches want - they want people working really hard and throwing themselves into everything. But Ashton just doesn't seem much good for that.

Part of it is he's not on form - part of it is he's not with the ideal players for him - but I honestly reckon a big part is what the coaches want from their wingers and what Ashton offers is forming too big a divergence.

Speaking of which, we don't actually have a back three player that can take a crash ball... Is there anyone coming through the England set up that can?

 

[j'nuh]

I'm starting to have high hopes for tomorrow after reading a little interview with Burns in This is Gloucestershire. Speaking of him and Twelvetrees, he said, "Andy Farrell turned around and told us we had license to do whatever we want." Apparently Burns has been leading the reserve backline and "creating havoc" with Twelvetrees. It sounds very focused on attack. This is a chance for us to move our creativity up a notch, and hopefully silence yoe91 and prove that we do have the spark. (Read from, "England boss Stuart Lancaster challenged...": here).

Also, apparently Lancaster actually had Tuilagi on the wing with Twelvetrees and Barritt in the centers planned, but after Care replaced Youngs and Farrell had to drop out with injury, he didn't want to make any more changes around in the backline. But if this was his intentions originally, I think we'll probably see it at some point tomorrow. (Can read about this: here)

I don't think these are the right long-term solutions, but it is refreshing to see a coach willing to experiment a little where possible.

Speaking of which, we don't actually have a back three player that can take a crash ball... Is there anyone coming through the England set up that can?

I think the closest to it is Miles Benjamin - 6'1 and weighs 16 stone 5 but also has decent speed. Would have been playing at Tigers this season but has yet to make his debut since moving from Worcester because of a season-ending injury. Scored 7 tries in 21 games for Worcester last season. It doesn't sound too impressive, but that's joint-third in the try-scoring list when playing for the team which scored the fewest tries last season (23). This means he scored almost a third of all Worcester's Premiership tries last season. Decent try here. Has also been heavily involved with Saxons in the past, so wasn't too far off.

I wouldn't go looking for a crash ball though, Tuilagi fills that role. Two from May, Monye, Wade, Ashton, JSD, Sharples, Varndell and Benjamin is a solid pool. If age isn't a restriction, JSD has to be in asap. If it is, I'd look at May and Monye in the summer, and Wade and Benjamin later on.

 

[Peat]

Ben Howard in the U20s is a very big boy and might offer that option but elsewise, no, we've simply turned out tons and tons of elusive nippy buggers that we then refuse to pick. Hope Benjamin comes back well next season.

I also now want Jack Nowell on the summer tour.