England vs Italy - 10/03/2013

[Taylo2]

Our back row options = four 6's...

Did ok v France with three 6's, a second row and fat kiwi

 

[j_remos]

Pretty dull selection in the backs, lets hope we get a huge lead and we can bring the bench on early. I expect us to win and its definitely wish to give some game time to a few players. We have a lot of choices in the forwards so i think sharing the load is a good idea but we relay need to start picking some wingers.

 

[Crapspray]

Our back row options = four 6's...

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice that. With a backline that's got one winger, who's not playing particularly well. I suppose Croft counts as the second.

I hope Lancaster is just fudging until he gets Morgan back and some younger wingers get a chance in the summer, because it is dismaying to think he's not at all bothered playing without an attacking back three and no hard-carrying forwards (except, perhaps, Tom Youngs). I feel sorry for Billy Vunipola; he's been with the squad all tournament, missed France game due to injury, great domestic form, and Tom Croft turns up and takes his spot in a week. I'd be happy to eat my words should Croft come off the bench and run in a hat-trick but, eyeing Cardiff, I can't help but feel we would have been better balancing the back row.

Hopefully Burns and Twelvetrees will come on inside Tuilagi with 30 minutes to go and we can see what happens if our backs do more than bosh. If only they had May and Wade in there as well...

 

[ratsapprentice]

But the point is that we already have three 6's, why do we need another? This was the perfect time to introduce Billy, and I can't see what the team or management gain by bringing Croft in over him?
It would be fine if they thought he was better than one of the flankers we already have and made a replacement, but again they ignore the merits of specialists.

edit: I would probably like to see the more attacking minded bench come on earlier than 50mins tbh
If we are dominating at half time, then chuck them in please.

 

[Taylo2]

But the point is that we already have three 6's, why do we need another? This was the perfect time to introduce Billy, and I can't see what the team or management gain by bringing Croft in over him?
It would be fine if they thought he was better than one of the flankers we already have and made a replacement, but again they ignore the merits of specialists.

Thats a fair point, and I agree Billy would have been my choice as a replacement for this one, but I'm guessing Lancaster wants Croft back in the fold asap. Robshaw is regarded as our 7 by all accounts, with no-one else really challenging him in that spot, Wood seems more than capable at 6,7 or 8, Haskell covers as well.

I would guess, and only a guess, Lancaster & his coaching staff don't see any of the specialists ready to be bought into the team just yet, not because they're not good enough, but because they don't suit his set up just yet. The culture and team ethic England have right now, is something we've not had for at least a decade, and I would guess, Lancaster is placing that above specialists right now. Kind of like, everyone muck in to do all the jobs rather than the responsibility landing on one set of shoulders.

Then again, I don't know

 

[Crapspray]

Perhaps he wants to keep Vunipola for Argentina and give Croft a chance of going on the Lions tour?

 

[McTallshort]

Great to see Croft back, lots of noise regarding Vunipola but I am not convinced he should be in the starting 23 just yet, there seems to be lots of hype around him and he may play some part in the coming years but Lancaster knows these players better than any of us and has Morgan first choice 8 with Wood filling in during Morgan's many absences and thats fine with me.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Perhaps he wants to keep Vunipola for Argentina and give Croft a chance of going on the Lions tour?

The England team can't be treated as a platform for individuals to further their own careers.

I'm really looking forward to seeing whether starting allows Mako to grow into the game as he seems to for Sarries... I think he's had 5 MOM awards this season? Unprecedented for a prop afaik
And whether we can deliver quick ball again after seemingly trudging through a mire for most of the France match.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

To the people who think Billy should have been there:

What would the point have been in putting him in the 23 when he's never going to make the 23 for Wales? Lancaster is right to emphasise consistency from one week to the next. To be given your debut, you have to be ready for all international games, not just the easy ones.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Equally what's the point in playing Wood at 8 when Morgan is going to be playing there next week?

I think debuting against Italy at home with lots of experienced players is going to be better for him than doing so away, against a much stronger Argentina with lots of our top players away with the Lions? (assumption)

It's also because of the "culture" that Lancaster introduced when he took over, of not letting people leapfrog players who are currently in line for a place due to past glories.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Because Wood is class and will be in that back-row, regardless of position. He's done lots of work there with England by the sounds of it. Vunipola won't be anywhere next week, because he does not yet have a well-rounded enough game. He's only in that England set-up to learn by experience and exposure; I'd bet lots of money that Lancaster never intended for him to play in this six nations.

 

[McTallshort]

Equally what's the point in playing Wood at 8 when Morgan is going to be playing there next week?

I think debuting against Italy at home with lots of experienced players is going to be better for him than doing so away, against a much stronger Argentina with lots of our top players away with the Lions? (assumption)

It's also because of the "culture" that Lancaster introduced when he took over, of not letting people leapfrog players who are currently in line for a place due to past glories.

If a player is good enough he gets selected, to say Lancaster doesnt give players a chance ignores everything he has done the past year. If Vunipola was good enough to start he would be doing but he isnt get over it

 

[ratsapprentice]

If a player is good enough he gets selected, to say Lancaster doesnt give players a chance ignores everything he has done the past year.

Vunipola is, along with Easter and Morgan, the form 8 in the premiership. Morgan is injured and Easter will not be picked, there is nothing to suggest that he isn't good enough and plenty to suggest he is, at least against Italy.
It's precisely because Lancaster has so far, generally selected on form that I am surprised he has overlooked Billy. I simply do not understand why we need four natural blindsides.
I am a believer in playing players in their specialist/natural positions on the whole, hence why I am not keen on having Brown on the wing for anything other than one off matches either.

If Vunipola was good enough to start he would be doing but he isnt get over it

Seriously? Surely this forum is for discussion, you seem to be upset that I am trying to do so?

 

[mstar]

i agree Good to see croft i Don't want him to get 5 mins i want him to get at least 15-20 mins.
He gives England so much fire power that no other 6,7 or 8 does.

HE will also help in stabilising the lineout when we in trouble, i would say he is probably the best lineout jumper in the England side. ALso he has pace that no other back row has.

I am happy to see Care back its his chance to prove he can keep that jersey.
Not to disappointed with Mako Vunipola in place of Marler, lets see how good he is. I'm particularly looking at how good he can be in the loose, as as scrummagers him and marler are similar.

I hope Lancaster uses 12T, i mean not for 10mins or so. Give him the second half if the game is within Englands gasp. The game plan i can see will be for England to put a cushion of a lead on Italy THEN throw the bench on at around 55-65mins.

 

[j'nuh]

If a player is good enough he gets selected, to say Lancaster doesnt give players a chance ignores everything he has done the past year. If Vunipola was good enough to start he would be doing but he isnt get over it

There have been plenty of players snubbed under Lancaster's rule though, especially backs: Biggs, Varndell, JSD, Sharples, Monye, Twelvetrees, Allen, Burns. Forwards are better, and I think that's the influence of Graham Rowntree. B. Vunipola should have been given a shot by now though. Morgan is a clear-cut first-choice for 8 when fit, so filling out the spot with a similar player makes sense. Billy should have had a shot to do that. Mako has deserved a start for a while too. I have yet to see Marler's "superior" loose work on the international stage.

Croft straight back in too? <_<

 

[Patchey]

Well Burns and TT have both one their first caps under Lancaster and you could argue that had he not been injured Burns would already have played in this 6N. The weird wing selection is probably the only real 'snubb' under Lancaster's coaching regime.

 

[Big Ewis]

2012: England won 19-15 in Rome
2011: England won 59-13 at Twickenham
2010: England won 17-12 in Rome
2009 :England won 36-11 at Twickenham
2008: England won 23-19 in Rome
2007: England won 20-7 at Twickenham
2006: England won 31-16 in Rome
2005: England won 39-7 at Twickenham
2004: England won 50-9 in Rome
2003: England won 40-5 at Twickenham
2002: England won 40-9 in Rome
2001: England won 80-23 at Twickenham
2000: England won 59-12 in Rome

And I have a strong feeling the scrum won't be an advantage to Italy...not even that.
Based purely on stats, well not just purely...I'm ready to bet England lose for the first time next year against Italy. Looking at those results gradually worsening in Rome from England, I think next year is the one.

 

[Peat]

There have been plenty of players snubbed under Lancaster's rule though, especially backs: Biggs, Varndell, JSD, Sharples, Monye, Twelvetrees, Allen, Burns. Forwards are better, and I think that's the influence of Graham Rowntree. B. Vunipola should have been given a shot by now though. Morgan is a clear-cut first-choice for 8 when fit, so filling out the spot with a similar player makes sense. Billy should have had a shot to do that. Mako has deserved a start for a while too. I have yet to see Marler's "superior" loose work on the international stage.

Croft straight back in too? <_<

Biggs - Meh, maybe, plenty of wings been tried
Varndell - Defensive capabilities of my penis
JSD - Not the future, although still unlucky
Sharples - Tried, didn't do enough
Monye - Unlucky, but can't complain that much given his England career to date
Twelvetrees - Is in the match-day ****ing squad. Hardly snubbed!
Allen - Rightfully stuck in the queue behind Barritt and Twelvetrees
Burns - Again, in the match-day squad - first game back from injury too. Lancaster isn't Jesus, he can't magically heal players to give them more games.

Biggs and Monye might have complaints - everyone else either has none or is clearly in the plan.

Mako's discipline has been crap, Marler's been in fine form. I'm happy Mako's getting a shot, he's done some great stuff - but he's not laid down the definitive case for a start against the other guy.

I've have liked to have seen Billy start, but he too is something of a penalty magnet. This England side lives and dies by its discipline in its own half - naivety of that sort needs to be stamped out. As it is, we've trialled what happens when Morgan goes off in games very well - and Morgan probably would be the guy to be subbed off 90pc of the time.

And yes, Croft straight back in. I apologise for the following argument, as I hate it when people use it on me, but don't you think the fact that Graham Rowntree and Lancaster have brought him back into the fold as soon as possible might indicate that he's a better forward than you think? It's not like they haven't made it very clear what they want in terms of work ethic, ground work and so on.

I like the pack. Vunipola and Youngs add huge carrying potential, counter-balancing the more work horse nature of the back row, and everyone there will make ground if they hit the ball at pace. Subs bench can bring some real energy to it as well. The backs, well I'm resigned to the problems in the backs, it's a conservative back-three but hopefully they'll start to fix it over the coming year. Hopefully the half-backs can ignite something.

p.s. RatsApprentice - if you're a big believer in specialist positions, why are you referring to this as a back-row of 6s when two of the players play 7 every week for their club and have done so for a few seasons?

 

[ratsapprentice]

And yes, Croft straight back in. I apologise for the following argument, as I hate it when people use it on me, but don't you think the fact that Graham Rowntree and Lancaster have brought him back into the fold as soon as possible might indicate that he's a better forward than you think? It's not like they haven't made it very clear what they want in terms of work ethic, ground work and so on.

I like the pack. Vunipola and Youngs add huge carrying potential, counter-balancing the more work horse nature of the back row, and everyone there will make ground if they hit the ball at pace. Subs bench can bring some real energy to it as well. The backs, well I'm resigned to the problems in the backs, it's a conservative back-three but hopefully they'll start to fix it over the coming year. Hopefully the half-backs can ignite something.

p.s. RatsApprentice - if you're a big believer in specialist positions, why are you referring to this as a back-row of 6s when two of the players play 7 every week for their club and have done so for a few seasons?

I have, lots of high level coaches obviously rate him. Whenever he's played for England he has seemed to me to be very average at the breakdown/tackle. I'm not trying to take away from his obvious strengths in broken play and the lineout.

Agree re the pack, I think Youngs has been massively important in the recent up-turn in the speed of recycling our own ball too.

They all started out as 6's I believe, and they don't play traditional 7 roles. That role being, in my mind, more pace compared to the 6 and better ability over the ball.
I don't really have a big issue with it because it works, I wouldn't be able to say the same were Croft to replace one of them, because of the deficit in ability at the breakdown/tight.
I should also clarify that I do like Croft, I think he is a great player to bring on toward the end of games where we are comfortably winning. At the moment though, I don't think bringing him in should be our priority.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Don't get me wrong ratsapprentice, I'm super excited at the idea of Billy, just as I still am at the idea of a Burns Twelvetrees Tuilagi midfield - but I'm prepared to wait.

I've watched every single minute of Wasps in the premiership this season and I can tell you that, for a start, Peats right about the penalty issue - Billy gives away more than will be the average per player for the current Elite squad - apart from Haskell, of course. He also needs more time as part of a new defensive system, such as with Englands rush defense, for him to fully buy into it and play the team role. For Wasps he seems to have recently had the dawning realisation that he is in fact massive, and as well as carrying well he can also make big hits. Accordingly, he does break the line quite a lot to make hits, often missing and ceding metres. In a way he's in the same position as Wade is, in the way that Christan loves to rush out of the line for an intercept - neither of them have really got it down yet in terms of that decision making.

Another thing is that Billy knocks on more than an average player - granted he's no Faletau at dropping the ball - but because of the size of collisions he coughs it up quite a lot. He also has a tendency, like Sam Jones, to burst away from support too quickly and be turned over.

I don't want to over-do the case against Billy, as these are all little aspects of his game, but when put together they cast enough doubt as to his readiness as to make lancaster's decision very understandable, laudable even!

Peat: That's very harsh on your penis... you don't want to give him confidence issues..

Harsh on Sharples, I don't see that he's had much chance - not in terms of minutes but in terms of the way each game has panned out. Also, I can't help but notice that no single winger has really done that much under this regime. I just think James Brown: "This is a full-backs world!" No, too many syllables...