England vs Barbarians 26/05

[Peat]

Why is it an either/or? Burns to start in good conditions. Farrell when it's ******* it down. One gets injured? Bring in Flood. Job done.

Why Farrell when its ******* it down?

 

[ratsapprentice]

The idea that Farrell is consistent is conjecture, he simply isn't.
I know I've said it before, but it bears repeating.

He is actually fairly inconsistent, in that he can kick all his goals one week and then miss them all the next.
That goes for his passing too, although his best passing is still very average.
His defence is generally consistant, although he isn't always as assertive as he's shown he can be.

AFAIK their premiership goal kicking stats are fairly similar, no?

 

[j'nuh]

^ Agreed.

I think that people often have the idea that fly-halves which base their game around the control of territory aren't as flaky as those with more attacking zip. And to an extent that's true, because attacking fly-halves have diminishing returns in their success rate the higher the level they go and game control is the priority. I think this is why people view Farrell as consistent and Burns as inconsistent. BUT I think people are wrong about Burns being just an attacking fly-half. Some may get their impressions of Burns through highlight reels and that one England game and some games from last season. But Burns is probably a better game-controller than Farrell is. Just watch the kind of territory kicking he was putting in in the video I posted above. With a much weaker pack and all of the Glos strike runners injured (Olly Morgan, Trinder, May, JSD), it was Burns' control over games and his point kicking that put Glos near the top of the table. Burns isn't as flaky some make out, and Farrell isn't as consistent. It's just that Burns has a better attacking game and Farrell has a better defensive game.

 

[Peat]

I can only back up what j'nuh said based on what I saw for Glaws. Ball in hand, Freddie Burns is about as good a fly-half as I've seen recently, and that includes pinging the corners and vision. He lack Farrell's defensive game, pretty much every fly-half other than Sexton, Wilko and maybe a couple of others (up north) do, but he's displayed a day-in day-out competence at the day job of a fly-half that imo Farrell can only dream of.

Farrell's biggest asset is that he's viewed as a Test Match Animal, the sort of cool headed man who loves pressure games. But unless I'm mistaken, he's fluffed his last three big games straight. Well, three out of four to be fair. And that's useful, but I'd rather have the guy who can actually play first and foremost.

 

[Crapspray]

Why Farrell when its ******* it down?

Basically the plan from the Ireland game in this year's Six Nations. Big pack and defensive backs. Keep the score a multiple of three. I think Farrell would be a better choice, if only because the gulf between him and Burns in attack is assuaged by the weather-limited game.

I suppose the point was that, while they offer different things, and are not equal overall, they give England good options. The starting 10 becomes a choice game by game, with the default being Burns.

 

[j'nuh]

If Burns took the 10 position, I'm wondering who might be the best 12. With Farrell, I hate the idea of Barritt, because Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi suffocates the ball in midfield, and the movement in the 10/12 channel is too painfully obvious and neither Farrell nor Barritt are great at supporting Tuilagi. However, with Burns at 10, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Allen and Burrell (I thought he played great in the final) all have their uses.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

If Burns took the 10 position, I'm wondering who might be the best 12. With Farrell, I hate the idea of Barritt, because Farrell-Barritt-Tuilagi suffocates the ball in midfield, and the movement in the 10/12 channel is too painfully obvious and neither Farrell nor Barritt are great at supporting Tuilagi. However, with Burns at 10, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Allen and Burrell (I thought he played great in the final) all have their uses.

I have always thought that we should use club combinations where possible and i think burns and 12treess have the 10/12 shirts locked for a while. I get the impression that eastmond will be tried out at 12 to (similarish player to 12trees in terms of what he offers) and then baritt might be our back up 13.

I half feel for lancaster, because to get a good england feeling he needed time to get a poor england side winning before he could really bring in the younger better players. I think he has done a good job at that so far.....now is the real test, will he cut out the dead wood and use the form players or will he continue with the older and useless players.

He said he wanted two players in each position fighting for the shirt which means he will ahve to cap each person in each position a few times. This Arg tour will give him those options.

 

[j'nuh]

I would like Burns to get used to partnering both Barritt and Twelvetrees and vary them per game. I think both have their uses.

 

[deedeedatiger]

would love to see tait having another run out in an england shirt looking very dangerous with the ball in hand and i sure do prefer him to brown

 

[j'nuh]

The problem with fullback is that there are so many of them around at the minute. Seriously: Brown, Foden, Goode*, Daly, Tait, Abendanon, Morgan**, Arscott, Cook***, Pennell, Eastmond****, Miller...

* I don't like him, but Lancaster seems to.
** He's been out of the game for most of two years now, but if he can sustain fitness, what a player.
*** Left-field maybe? But he's been flipping brilliant this year. (Rated third best player this year at Glos by fans, behind Kalamafoni and Qera.) I think he'd be at least in the Saxons if he were 23 or something.
**** Would prefer him at 12, but Lancaster's been clear about where he sees Eastmond.

 

[deedeedatiger]

Cook is a great player but i don't think he has the attacking qualities to be an international for me the fb's in contention should be
Tait
Brown
Foden
May(could play on the wing, anything thats not ashton :lol

 

[ratsapprentice]

**** Would prefer him at 12, but Lancaster's been clear about where he sees Eastmond.

What he's said means he probably won't be a FB for England.
He said he sees him as either a 10, 12 or 15. But that it depends on where Bath choose to play him next season.
Gary Gold has already said he might play him at 10, although it's unlikely that he will be able to get in front of Heathcote and Ford.
And it's also unlikely he's going to leapfrog Abendanon and Watson.
He's almost 100% certain to be a 12.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tait is not the best FB in England. (EDIT: Just realised you were listing, rather than ranking, fullbacks, so ignore that).
Very good going forward recently, but his defence and defensive positioning still leaves a lot to be desired - one of Saints tries on the weekend came from him going in to tackle a player that already had two defenders on him.
Then again, his defence has always been...suspect...wherever he's been played. I'd still take Brown and Foden ahead of him.

 

[deedeedatiger]

A few tweaks should do it, but so is ashton and goode, I'd much rather have attacking talent than defensive players as tackling can always be worked on but offensive awareness and pozzaz can't. As they say you either got it or you don't

 

[Patchey]

Tait is not the best FB in England. (EDIT: Just realised you were listing, rather than ranking, fullbacks, so ignore that).
Very good going forward recently, but his defence and defensive positioning still leaves a lot to be desired - one of Saints tries on the weekend came from him going in to tackle a player that already had two defenders on him.
Then again, his defence has always been...suspect...wherever he's been played. I'd still take Brown and Foden ahead of him.

I guess that comes from having only converted to 15 fairly recently? On his day he is, however, the best 13 in England. I think Daly and JJ have the potential to be better (but like Tait Daly is being moulded into a fullback) but it you want a creative, running back line I'd take an on form Tait over Tuilagi. Not that Tuilagi isn't one of England's best backs but, providing you have the Likes of Morgan giving you front foot ball, Tait would be even better.

I realise this isn't exactly a common opinion though.

 

[HowieLO6]

I guess that comes from having only converted to 15 fairly recently? On his day he is, however, the best 13 in England. I think Daly and JJ have the potential to be better (but like Tait Daly is being moulded into a fullback) but it you want a creative, running back line I'd take an on form Tait over Tuilagi. Not that Tuilagi isn't one of England's best backs but, providing you have the Likes of Morgan giving you front foot ball, Tait would be even better.

I realise this isn't exactly a common opinion though.

While I don't disagree with the logic behind this, is this really where he'll end up finding himself?

I ask, as he's never really had the opportunity to settle into one position, even in his school days. Played 12 in his U6 DM Cup run (with yarde at 13!), played at 10 the year before, but at 13 for the England U20 setup. Often finds himself on the wing at Wasps, as well as time spent at 13. Fullback one week with the Baabaas, but now in at 13? Needs to find a place for himself, rather than the moniker of "utility back". Can't see it serving him particularly well.


For those who are a little more knowledgeable, why not the Giteau-esque 12? Seems well suited.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

While I don't disagree with the logic behind this, is this really where he'll end up finding himself?

I ask, as he's never really had the opportunity to settle into one position, even in his school days. Played 12 in his U6 DM Cup run (with yarde at 13!), played at 10 the year before, but at 13 for the England U20 setup. Often finds himself on the wing at Wasps, as well as time spent at 13. Fullback one week with the Baabaas, but now in at 13? Needs to find a place for himself, rather than the moniker of "utility back". Can't see it serving him particularly well.


For those who are a little more knowledgeable, why not the Giteau-esque 12? Seems well suited.

I for one would like to see that as he does have a good boot on him as well but i can't see wasps playing him there as they seem to like big crash 12's as they play

Masi
C Bell
L Thomas

All whom i'd call crash 12's. I think Daly is the type of player who could play anywhere but he does need to shine in one position really to be picked. I guess it's another eastmond situation, where ever he is played most next season will be where he will be seen in an egland shirt one day.