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England vs Australia - 01/11/25

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Saintjay said:
The second Ford misses a tackle, or starts hiding in the back field. I will be reminding @TRF_Olyy of the mean things he said about Fin's defence, whilst pointing out Ford has the stopping ability of wild west saloon doors.
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Don't need to remind me, the image of Fin waving an attacking player through to score a try on the weekend will live long in the memory of every England fan (and team selector)
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
But that is pure guess work, you cannot (you as in the coaches) say that in 2 years Freeman will be a better OC than Lawrence not the best OC in the country.

It's utter nonsense and pure guesswork.

It's not like we are moving Freeman to cover a position where they is no strong players, we are dropping Lawrence who's been one of our best backs. Makes no sense unless there is something we have missed.
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How is it pure guess work?

The England coaches have full access to the players. They see them in full training, and at their club training (and matches) and they have the dreaded spreadsheet stats, they have a complete picture of the players. They also have the fact Freeman has already played 13 for Saints and England.

As ive said, i prefer players in their positions, however i very open to players moving if they are going to be even better a) than the current incumbent, and b) than their current position, which then allows other quality players to come in (ie Roebuck in this case)

Again, ALL the top sides do it, its nothing new.
 
Freeman has also been quoted as saying that he wants to play 13. Part of that was future proofing against a future loss of pace (his words). But presumably also partly as he thinks he can be even better there and right now he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

There might also be a horses for courses selection here to combat Sua’alii.
 
If Freeman can make a decent go of 13 then it does make sense. We currently have a glut of very talented and dangerous wings. If we can shift one into another position and maintain all they currently bring to the game then that creates space for others. It also creates another utility player on the field who can be worth their weight in gold (Daley for example). I still think Lawrence is the No. 1 player for that birth, but having a solid No.2 and 3 cant hurt.

I hope SB starts to figure out the 15 problem because I don’t believe Steward is the answer. With Furbank absent we need to start developing a proper counter attacking threat in this position. Surely Calouri would fit this role? Great aerial ability, incredible pace, and youth. Also Arundell. I know he hasn’t played there in a while but it’s not completely alien to him.

Anyway, I’m really looking forward to this one and feel pretty positive about what England are building. Fingers crossed for a lovely dry day and some Champagne rugby.
 
Geordie said:
How is it pure guess work?

The England coaches have full access to the players. They see them in full training, and at their club training (and matches) and they have the dreaded spreadsheet stats, they have a complete picture of the players. They also have the fact Freeman has already played 13 for Saints and England.

As ive said, i prefer players in their positions, however i very open to players moving if they are going to be even better a) than the current incumbent, and b) than their current position, which then allows other quality players to come in (ie Roebuck in this case)

Again, ALL the top sides do it, its nothing new.
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None of that helps you read the future don’t is utter nonsense. You cannot predict the future either to say he is or isn’t going to make a great 13.

Freeman might be brilliant, he might also not enjoy the defensive pressure of 13, or maybe not play as well overall because of the lack of space. Data isn’t going to give that facts or certainty. Just because someone is a certain height or weight or speed that doesn’t mean anything.

And Freeman said in the interview that when he slows down he may have to play 13 in a general article where he is never going to say ‘I don’t actually want to play 13’ because he’s media trained.

International rugby is not about trying Freeman at 13 in the hope he may be better than the best 13 in the premiership. Thats odd.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
None of that helps you read the future don't is utter nonsense. You cannot predict the future either to say he is or isn't going to make a great 13.

Freeman might be brilliant, he might also not enjoy the defensive pressure of 13, or maybe not play as well overall because of the lack of space. Data isn't going to give that facts or certainty. Just because someone is a certain height or weight or speed that doesn't mean anything.

And Freeman said in the interview that when he slows down he may have to play 13 in a general article where he is never going to say 'I don't actually want to play 13' because he's media trained.

International rugby is not about trying Freeman at 13 in the hope he may be better than the best 13 in the premiership. Thats odd.
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But they can identify his skills play him in the role in training and assess how he is against the current incumbant of the shirt. Its a well trodden route.
Its not "looking into the future".

Again ALL teams do this so why is this one such an issue, im struggling to understand?
 
Personally I feel Borthwick is using position changes as a potential excuse for a loss

Aus is a game we should win but can really us losing even at full strength

We don’t get many games v T1 SH teams so why mess around now
 
Geordie said:
But they can identify his skills play him in the role in training and assess how he is against the current incumbant of the shirt. Its a well trodden route.
Its not "looking into the future".

Again ALL teams do this so why is this one such an issue, im struggling to understand?
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My issue is you are weakening the back 3 by moving our best winger and you are also weakening our best back (in a lot of games) in Lawrence. If Lawrence was injured I’d understand but I’m struggling to see the gain for this game.

A lesser centre pairing and a lesser back three.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
My issue is you are weakening the back 3 by moving our best winger and you are also weakening our best back (in a lot of games) in Lawrence. If Lawrence was injured I'd understand but I'm struggling to see the gain for this game.

A lesser centre pairing and a lesser back three.
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I'm seeing it as a trial. I could see why Lawrence would be miffed if he is fit.

You could make a valid arguement Freemans not the best 13 at his club let alone for England. I think there's an element of hoping he becomes the best.
 
Allianz Stadium, Twickenham
Referee: Nika Amashukeli (Geo)
ARs: James Doleman (NZ) & Craig Evans (Wal)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (Fra)
FPRO: Matteo Liperini (Ita)

England

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
14. Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, 6 caps)
13. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
12. Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
11. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
10. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 102 caps) – vice-captain
9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 23 caps)

1. Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 14 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 102 caps) – vice-captain
3. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 93 caps) – captain
5. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)
6. Guy Pepper (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 42 caps)

Replacements:
16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 49 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 71 caps) – vice-captain
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
19. Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
20. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 61 caps)
21. Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
22. Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
23. Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)

Australia

1. Angus Bell (45 Tests) - #940; Hunters Hill Rugby Club
2. Billy Pollard (17 Tests) - #958; Lindfield Junior Rugby
3. Taniela Tupou (65 Tests) - #917; Brothers Rugby
4. Nick Frost (34 Tests) - #953; Hornsby Lions
5. Jeremy Williams (21 Tests) – #973; Wahroonga Tigers
6. Rob Valetini (58 Tests) - #929; Harlequin Rugby Club
7. Fraser McReight (35 Tests) - #937; Albany Creek Brumbies
8. Harry Wilson (c) (32Tests) - #933; Gunnedah Red Devils

9. Jake Gordon (33 Tests) - #925; Canterbury Juniors
10. Tane Edmed (5 Tests) - #990; West Harbour Juniors
11. Harry Potter (7 Tests) - #989; Moorabbin Rams
12. Hunter Paisami (33 Tests) - #932; Harlequin Rugby Club
13. Joseph-Aukuso Suaalii (14 Tests) - #988; The Kings School
14. Max Jorgensen (17 Tests) - #984; Balmain Wolves
15. Andrew Kellaway (45 Tests) - #943; Hunters Hill Rugby Club

Substitutes
16. Josh Nasser (9 Tests) - #979; Easts Rugby (Brisbane)
17. Tom Robertson (37 Tests) - #898; Dubbo Kangaroos
18. Allan Alaalatoa (85 Tests) - #896; West Harbour Juniors
19. Lukhan Salakaia-Loto (44 Tests) – #914; Randwick
20. Nick Champion de Crespigny (3 Tests) - #991; Canberra Grammar School
21. Ryan Lonergan (2 Tests) - #933; Tuggeranong Vikings
22. Hamish Stewart (3 Tests) - #986; Toowoomba Bears
23. Filipo Daugunu (16 Tests) - #931, Wests Bulldogs
 
Geordie said:
Anyway, lets leave that there and see how it all goes. Im still confident this side looks strong. But then Australia have put a strong team out.
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Agreed.


Looking at that wallabies team they look a big pack. Glad we’ve got underhill to cut them down.

In theory in the second half England could field a brand new entire back row of Cole’s, curry and pollock. That is a massive impact from the bench. Need Cole’s to bring his domestic form and not try too much and give away a silly penalty which he’s done previously.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
Agreed.


Looking at that wallabies team they look a big pack. Glad we've got underhill to cut them down.

In theory in the second half England could field a brand new entire back row of Cole's, curry and pollock. That is a massive impact from the bench. Need Cole's to bring his domestic form and not try too much and give away a silly penalty which he's done previously.
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Dont forget Genge and Stuart coming on aswell, thats massive front row impact aswell.

But yes they have a big pack. I wish we had a little more bulk in that back 5 but theres certainly explosive power and pace.
 

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