England vs Australia - 01/11/25

[Geordie]

I see Freeman as the best wing in the premiership and Lawrence as the best 13. But then maybe I'm not seeing something that SB does but what worries me is that he might be driven by some stupid spreadsheet rather than what's on the pitch as we've seen before.

I know there were rumours or clips that Lawrence was lazy getting in line and chasing back etc in previous England games (think it was maybe egg chasers or one of the YouTube things I saw that). But he's a class player who is a better 13 than Freeman.

CCS concerns me more about the balance of the back row, I know Willis was a shock but we've not got any higher back row players which isn't a good balance.

Its not just SB talking about Freeman at 13 though...theres lots of pundits and media suggesting it also,.

 

[Geordie]

I see Freeman as the best wing in the premiership and Lawrence as the best 13. But then maybe I'm not seeing something that SB does but what worries me is that he might be driven by some stupid spreadsheet rather than what's on the pitch as we've seen before.

I know there were rumours or clips that Lawrence was lazy getting in line and chasing back etc in previous England games (think it was maybe egg chasers or one of the YouTube things I saw that). But he's a class player who is a better 13 than Freeman.

CCS concerns me more about the balance of the back row, I know Willis was a shock but we've not got any higher back row players which isn't a good balance.

The real issue i have is the lack of some real heft. Itoje, and Chessum are powerful lads but neither are particularly heavy duty. Martin missing so often is a concern, Tom Willis looked to be bridging that at 8 ...now thats gone.

We dont have many really heavy powerhouses i can think of, other than CCS really.

 

[LIONSxv]

We dont actually know that? Hes played several games at 13, and each time was excellent.

Why does it negate his aerial skills? Its a fantastic addition to have a 13 who has those skills, whilst bringing in another quality winger who ALSO has those skills. The can interchange about the back line comfortably / smoothly.

One is a specialist proven OC the other is a winger who has played 99% of his games in the back three.

I think we can all with some confidence say that at this stage that OL is a better 13 that Freeman. If Freeman makes the move to 13 permanent and excels then naturally we can look at that again in 12 months.

A 13 no matter which way you look at it will involved anywhere near the amount of aerial contests at as a back 3.

If we are looking at moving TF to another position why not full back. His original position and a position without much depth.

 

[Saintjay]

It's probably better trying him at 13 now than a year out from a world cup.

We are pretty stacked for wingers and at 15 have Steward, Furbank, Daly, Smith and others who can cover. Worst case we have a player who can cover 13, and the back three.

England need depth and Borthwick is looking like he's following Rassie in building for two years time.

Not sure but doesn't the world cup rankings get decided after the AI's. So i could be talking ******** and we need to win as many as we can or risk a bad group.

 

[Geordie]

It's probably better trying him at 13 now than a year out from a world cup.

We are pretty stacked for wingers and at 15 have Steward, Furbank, Daly, Smith and others who can cover. Worst case we have a player who can cover 13, and the back three.

England need depth and Borthwick is looking like he's following Rassie in building for two years time.

Not sure but doesn't the world cup rankings get decided after the AI's. So i could be talking ******** and we need to win as many as we can or risk a bad group.

You are correct

 

[Geordie]

One is a specialist proven OC the other is a winger who has played 99% of his games in the back three.

I think we can all with some confidence say that at this stage that OL is a better 13 that Freeman. If Freeman makes the move to 13 permanent and excels then naturally we can look at that again in 12 months.

A 13 no matter which way you look at it will involved anywhere near the amount of aerial contests at as a back 3.

If we are looking at moving TF to another position why not full back. His original position and a position without much depth.

Maybe not, but if you have a 13 who is as comfortable taking high balls on the wing (or anywhere) that a winger is, is going to be invaluable. Marchant springs to mind. Wing and 13 can interchange comfortably.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Maybe not, but if you have a 13 who is as comfortable taking high balls on the wing (or anywhere) that a winger is, is going to be invaluable. Marchant springs to mind. Wing and 13 can interchange comfortably.

Having a 13 who can take high balls is great but imagine having a world class winger actually on the wing and a brilliant OC at OC. We have the most players out there and yet we are still trying to shoehorn players into positions they don’t play week in and week out.

When on earth did England break away from nearly every other countries idea that you pick the best player in each position they actually are playing.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

A lot of SB’s comments already seem to be focused on the RWC. Is Freeman our best 13 now? No. Might he be in 2 years time? Quite possibly.

I don’t like over focusing on RWCs - only one team goes home happy and you’re at the mercy of a funny shaped ball, but that seems to be at the forefront of SB’s mind and any experimentation with positions or bench composition should probably be seen in that light.

 

[LIONSxv]

Maybe not, but if you have a 13 who is as comfortable taking high balls on the wing (or anywhere) that a winger is, is going to be invaluable. Marchant springs to mind. Wing and 13 can interchange comfortably.

Id sooner just pick the best players in their best positions. Especially as we now have specialist centres who are playing well after years of playing fly halves in the centres
Freeman is one the world's in form wingers, just let him show it for England.

 

[Geordie]

Having a 13 who can take high balls is great but imagine having a world class winger actually on the wing and a brilliant OC at OC. We have the most players out there and yet we are still trying to shoehorn players into positions they don't play week in and week out.

When on earth did England break away from nearly every other countries idea that you pick the best player in each position they actually are playing.

We could with Freeman, Waboso and Roebuck.

Since when are England are the only country not picking players in their "normal" position. Every country does it...

Beauden and Jordie Barrett , Thomas Ramos just a few recent example, but theres loads. The great Australia sides had players who could play just about every position, Tana Umaga, the great centre who started on the wing for the AB's then was eventually moved to centre. M'A Nonu aswell.

I do prefer players in their best position but maybe they're future planning and have identified that Freeman is a top class winger but can be an even better 13 and allow another top class winger to develop. Im sure Blackett etc has had a lot of imput in this aswell.

 

[Half Pint]

If we are looking at moving TF to another position why not full back. His original position and a position without much depth.

Yep. This. If we're well stocked for wings, then we know TF can play full back, and we can fit him in there without any trouble.

(Although I feel a bit sorry for Freddie Steward. Three years ago people were saying he had the 15 jersey nailed down for a decade. )

 

[BPM]

If you look back to our last full strength game vs Wal in the 6N we had Freeman at 13 with 3 open sides starting and another on the bench. So in a sense there is some consistency although I don't think that back row balance will work against the very best. Can only assume CCS wasn't fit enough to take a place on the bench.

I'm not upset at Ford, although F Smith would have been more logical. F needs the time and Ford has enough experience to slot back in whenever.

Not the first team to have started with the second choice front row although I don't like it. From what I've read it sounds like SB has been scarred by previous games where the bench hasn't had enough impact and is hell bent on ensuring we finish well….whether that compromises the way we start is another matter.

Wish he'd just let T Curry rest, but can only assume he wants some minutes in him before starting him v the ABs.

Pleased to see Underhill - always been a massive fan and out of all the emerging back row talent Pepper really looks like he might become the real deal.

Can't deny there is a morbid curiosity to see what happens if a couple of the outside backs go down.

I think you’re seriously underrating Baxter and Heyes TBH. Genge and Stuart are better and definitely offer more from a carrying POV, but I don’t think the drop off is particularly significant. Baxter in particular is developing into a fine player.

 

[Wasps92]

Bath v Wasps 2015 when Ford was told to try tackling Nathan Hughes high.

That's literally it.

The only other evidence is "1m78 & 84kg"

His tackle completion rate has been higher than "defensive leader" Owen Farrell for almost all of their careers

Is that really it? I seem to recall a poor attempted tackle by him against New Zealand in the last AI’s which led to an AB try.

It was painful watching him trying to tackle Caluori the other week too.

 

[BPM]

As is often the case, I think it’s somewhere in between. He’s definitely not the defensive liability some (in particular Andy Goode) like to make out, but he’s not a brilliant defender either. But … after years of Farrell being picking for defensive solidity over an above skills, I’m OK with a 10 whose picked for what he can do in attack and game management rather than dominant tackles.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Is that really it? I seem to recall a poor attempted tackle by him against New Zealand in the last AI's which led to an AB try.

It was painful watching him trying to tackle Caluori the other week too.

I don't think there was anyone who attempted to tackle Caluori the other week who walked away without egg on their face.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think there was anyone who attempted to tackle Caluori the other week

Could've stopped here tbh

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

We could with Freeman, Waboso and Roebuck.

Since when are England are the only country not picking players in their "normal" position. Every country does it...

Beauden and Jordie Barrett , Thomas Ramos just a few recent example, but theres loads. The great Australia sides had players who could play just about every position, Tana Umaga, the great centre who started on the wing for the AB's then was eventually moved to centre. M'A Nonu aswell.

I do prefer players in their best position but maybe they're future planning and have identified that Freeman is a top class winger but can be an even better 13 and allow another top class winger to develop. Im sure Blackett etc has had a lot of imput in this aswell.

But that is pure guess work, you cannot (you as in the coaches) say that in 2 years Freeman will be a better OC than Lawrence not the best OC in the country.

It’s utter nonsense and pure guesswork.

It’s not like we are moving Freeman to cover a position where they is no strong players, we are dropping Lawrence who’s been one of our best backs. Makes no sense unless there is something we have missed.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think you're seriously underrating Baxter and Heyes TBH. Genge and Stuart are better and definitely offer more from a carrying POV, but I don't think the drop off is particularly significant. Baxter in particular is developing into a fine player.

I actually think we’re agreeing. Watching Baxter, Heyes and Stuart progress and seeing Genge’s resurgence has been a real positive over the last couple of years. The gap has definitely closed but I think we still have clear first choices and I don’t see why you wouldn’t want those on the field for the majority of the game.

As is often the case, I think it's somewhere in between. He's definitely not the defensive liability some (in particular Andy Goode) like to make out, but he's not a brilliant defender either. But … after years of Farrell being picking for defensive solidity over an above skills, I'm OK with a 10 whose picked for what he can do in attack and game management rather than dominant tackles.

I’m sure we all agree….up to the point he misses a tackle when everyone starts howling again.

Ford and M Smith are both small and no-one questions their bravery. But it’s also true that means they will occasionally be bumped off and also concede ground in completing tackles. In the latter case that can be the difference between routine recycling and front foot ball. So while defence shouldn’t be in the top few criteria for a 10, it is a legitimate consideration.

 

[BPM]

I see Freeman as the best wing in the premiership and Lawrence as the best 13. But then maybe I'm not seeing something that SB does but what worries me is that he might be driven by some stupid spreadsheet rather than what's on the pitch as we've seen before.

I know there were rumours or clips that Lawrence was lazy getting in line and chasing back etc in previous England games (think it was maybe egg chasers or one of the YouTube things I saw that). But he's a class player who is a better 13 than Freeman.

CCS concerns me more about the balance of the back row, I know Willis was a shock but we've not got any higher back row players which isn't a good balance.

CCS isn't fit to play so it's a bit of a moot point.

TBH, even if he were I suspect he'd have been on the bench in place of Coles, not starting.

 

[Saintjay]

I actually think we're agreeing. Watching Baxter, Heyes and Stuart progress and seeing Genge's resurgence has been a real positive over the last couple of years. The gap has definitely closed but I think we still have clear first choices and I don't see why you wouldn't want those on the field for the majority of the game.




I'm sure we all agree….up to the point he misses a tackle when everyone starts howling again.

Ford and M Smith are both small and no-one questions their bravery. But it's also true that means they will occasionally be bumped off and also concede ground in completing tackles. In the latter case that can be the difference between routine recycling and front foot ball. So while defence shouldn't be in the top few criteria for a 10, it is a legitimate consideration.

The second Ford misses a tackle, or starts hiding in the back field. I will be reminding @TRF_Olyy of the mean things he said about Fin's defence, whilst pointing out Ford has the stopping ability of wild west saloon doors.