England vs Australia - 01/11/25

[BPM]

It seems to me that SB clearly wants at 1 of his 2 wingers to be a high ball specialist for cross field kicks. I don't see Roebuck as competing against Arundell at all, he's really competing against Freeman who has been shifted inside to accomodate him for this one. Unfortunatly for Roebuck, he is also now up against Caluori, who has (potentially) extreme aerial ability coupled with elusive running and more pace - a prospect that is rightly getting SB all hot and bothered. Arundell is currently in competition with Murley to be Feyi-Waboso's understudy.

Welcome @Matthews. I agree, that does appear to be the case.

The current pecking order is probably something like:

'Aerial' wing:

Freeman
Roebuck
Caluori
Muir

'Elusive' wing:

Feyi-Waboso
Murley
Sleightholme
Arundell
Radwan

Hard to be sure where Muir and Sleightholme rank given they’re currently injured but I suspect the latter would have made the squad if fit.

Muir maybe not - he’s probably the most under threat from Caluori’s emergence given they’re offering a similar USP at opposite ends of their careers.

 

[spartan32]

Welcome @Matthews. I agree, that does appear to be the case.

The current pecking order is probably something like:

'Aerial' wing:

Freeman
Roebuck
Caluori
Muir

'Elusive' wing:

Feyi-Waboso
Murley
Sleightholme
Arundell
Radwan

Hard to be sure where Muir and Sleightholme rank given they're currently injured but I suspect the latter would have made the squad if fit.

Muir maybe not - he's probably the most under threat from Caluori's emergence given they're offering a similar USP at opposite ends of their careers.

That does seem to make sense. You’ve got to imagine that Arundell will love up that pecking order pretty fast if he continues on current form. Either way we have an embarrassment of riches in the wing, but we seem to really be struggling at FB. It’s got to be tempting to groom Calouri for that post. He’s clearly great in the air, and has serious gas so could be deadly on the counter. Not sure how he kicks mind. If he could be made to work there’s the option of Arundell, IFW, Calouri back three which would be pretty interesting. All academic of course.

On another note saw a comment earlier about Ford being a defensive liability. Where do people get this idea? Pretty sure his tackle completion stats are decent. He’s not a massive lad so he may lose a few yard here and there, but he gets the job done. Hardly call him a turnstile! In the end we are really lucky to have three 10s that each bring something different. Ford has the tactics, hands and drop goals. Fin a bit of a beast 10, good D, nice kicking game. Marcus has the feet and the something from nothing magic. They’re all pretty decent just depends how you want to play. Rugbys a tough game and players get injured so I for one am glad to know we have depth at 10.

 

[Ddanno]

On another note saw a comment earlier about Ford being a defensive liability. Where do people get this idea? Pretty sure his tackle completion stats are decent. He's not a massive lad so he may lose a few yard here and there, but he gets the job done. Hardly call him a turnstile! In the end we are really lucky to have three 10s that each bring something different. Ford has the tactics, hands and drop goals. Fin a bit of a beast 10, good D, nice kicking game. Marcus has the feet and the something from nothing magic. They're all pretty decent just depends how you want to play. Rugbys a tough game and players get injured so I for one am glad to know we have depth at 10.

Completely agree. It's the same as the "can't kick for the posts" thing that followed him around for years and years because of one dodgy 6n game in 2014.

 

[Geordie]

It seems to me that SB clearly wants at 1 of his 2 wingers to be a high ball specialist for cross field kicks. I don't see Roebuck as competing against Arundell at all, he's really competing against Freeman who has been shifted inside to accomodate him for this one. Unfortunatly for Roebuck, he is also now up against Caluori, who has (potentially) extreme aerial ability coupled with elusive running and more pace - a prospect that is rightly getting SB all hot and bothered. Arundell is currently in competition with Murley to be Feyi-Waboso's understudy.

With the "blocking" of receivers banned now, wingers have to be able to take the high ball with opponents attacking them. Most wingers now will need to have some ability in the air (attack and defence), and at international level they all will. Waboso is our "elusive runner" but hes very strong in that area also.

Roebuck to me looks like hes bulked up abit aswell. Good to see. He can become a proper unit, and im not convinced that Calhouri is a more elusive runner than him. Roebuck just glides over the pitch and is pretty quick.

Im actually really excited to see how this game goes. This team has a lot to offer...the only thing missing might be a bit of real heft ( George Martin, Tom Willis style etc) ...so i wonder where CCS is. Maybe not quite fit.

 

[Which Tyler]

On another note saw a comment earlier about Ford being a defensive liability. Where do people get this idea?

Bath v Wasps 2015 when Ford was told to try tackling Nathan Hughes high.

That's literally it.

The only other evidence is "1m78 & 84kg"

His tackle completion rate has been higher than "defensive leader" Owen Farrell for almost all of their careers

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tackle completions this round:

George Ford: 88%
Fin Smith: 85%

#DefensiveLiability #BackToTackleSchoolFin

Also:
Tom Roebuck: 100%
Henry Arundell: 0%

 

[BPM]

Roebuck is very underrated. I’m happy for it to stay that way TBH. Usually pays off when the oppo underestimates you.

 

[LIONSxv]

I have absolutely no issue with G Ford he is a class act.

What I do have an issue with is seemingly shoehorning Freeman in at 13 at the expense of OL. Because of his continuity with Dingwall/Mitchell then not playing F Smith..it makes no sense

If he wants to play Ford he then needs to play OL at 13

 

[Geordie]

I have absolutely no issue with G Ford he is a class act.

What I do have an issue with is seemingly shoehorning Freeman in at 13 at the expense of OL. Because of his continuity with Dingwall/Mitchell then not playing F Smith..it makes no sense

If he wants to play Ford he then needs to play OL at 13

i think the Freeman thing has been a long term thing. He is an alround player of high quality, with pace and power. Add in his high ball skills etc, he look made for the 13 spot. He even said himself he wants to play there "eventually", well maybe sooner. I might draw some criticism here, but i actually think he'll be a better 13 than Lawrence. Hes just a more complete player. That then opens the door to bring in another winger (Roebuck) who is equally a more rounded player on the wing.

Its going to be an interesting period to see how the backs make up starts to pan out. Theres a number of positions they are still clearly not happy with .

12 - Still open though Atkinson put a good claim down
13 - Theres something with Lawrence they just cant settle with, hence the Freeman move.
15 - Still open, especially with Furbank seemingly never available these days,

 

[Geordie]

Roebuck is very underrated. I'm happy for it to stay that way TBH. Usually pays off when the oppo underestimates you.

I think he a class act. Hes becoming a very complete player in that he has few gaps in his game . Just needs to develop them all now as high as he can as Freeman has done.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If you look back to our last full strength game vs Wal in the 6N we had Freeman at 13 with 3 open sides starting and another on the bench. So in a sense there is some consistency although I don’t think that back row balance will work against the very best. Can only assume CCS wasn’t fit enough to take a place on the bench.

I’m not upset at Ford, although F Smith would have been more logical. F needs the time and Ford has enough experience to slot back in whenever.

Not the first team to have started with the second choice front row although I don’t like it. From what I’ve read it sounds like SB has been scarred by previous games where the bench hasn’t had enough impact and is hell bent on ensuring we finish well….whether that compromises the way we start is another matter.

Wish he’d just let T Curry rest, but can only assume he wants some minutes in him before starting him v the ABs.

Pleased to see Underhill - always been a massive fan and out of all the emerging back row talent Pepper really looks like he might become the real deal.

Can’t deny there is a morbid curiosity to see what happens if a couple of the outside backs go down.

 

[spartan32]

If you look back to our last full strength game vs Wal in the 6N we had Freeman at 13 with 3 open sides starting and another on the bench. So in a sense there is some consistency although I don't think that back row balance will work against the very best. Can only assume CCS wasn't fit enough to take a place on the bench.

I'm not upset at Ford, although F Smith would have been more logical. F needs the time and Ford has enough experience to slot back in whenever.

Not the first team to have started with the second choice front row although I don't like it. From what I've read it sounds like SB has been scarred by previous games where the bench hasn't had enough impact and is hell bent on ensuring we finish well….whether that compromises the way we start is another matter.

Wish he'd just let T Curry rest, but can only assume he wants some minutes in him before starting him v the ABs.

Pleased to see Underhill - always been a massive fan and out of all the emerging back row talent Pepper really looks like he might become the real deal.

Can't deny there is a morbid curiosity to see what happens if a couple of the outside backs go down.

Agree on Ford and FS. If you’re going to go for a prem centre pairing then why not add the 10 as well and make the set complete. Have Ford on the bench. Does seem an odd one?

As for finishing well, hasn’t our problem generally been starting well?! We always seem to be slow to warm up, or maybe that’s just me?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Agree on Ford and FS. If you're going to go for a prem centre pairing then why not add the 10 as well and make the set complete. Have Ford on the bench. Does seem an odd one?

As for finishing well, hasn't our problem generally been starting well?! We always seem to be slow to warm up, or maybe that's just me?

SB seems to be harking back to that period where we lost several close games on the spin and the bench was criticised for being ineffectual.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Bath v Wasps 2015 when Ford was told to try tackling Nathan Hughes high.

That's literally it.

The only other evidence is "1m78 & 84kg"

His tackle completion rate has been higher than "defensive leader" Owen Farrell for almost all of their careers

Plus he manages to tackle legally whereas Farrell has been exceptionally lucky in his career to have not been carded more, his technique at times is shocking. I've always found it stupid how we seem to put the ability to make big, solid tackles as a key skill for our 10, no other nation does that. Surely at 10 a high completion matters more than dominant hits.

 

[Ddanno]

Plus he manages to tackle legally whereas Farrell has been exceptionally lucky in his career to have not been carded more, his technique at times is shocking. I've always found it stupid how we seem to put the ability to make big, solid tackles as a key skill for our 10, no other nation does that. Surely at 10 a high completion matters more than dominant hits.

St Jonny's fault there. We've never quite moved on from him.

 

[LIONSxv]

i think the Freeman thing has been a long term thing. He is an alround player of high quality, with pace and power. Add in his high ball skills etc, he look made for the 13 spot. He even said himself he wants to play there "eventually", well maybe sooner. I might draw some criticism here, but i actually think he'll be a better 13 than Lawrence. Hes just a more complete player. That then opens the door to bring in another winger (Roebuck) who is equally a more rounded player on the wing.

Its going to be an interesting period to see how the backs make up starts to pan out. Theres a number of positions they are still clearly not happy with .

12 - Still open though Atkinson put a good claim down
13 - Theres something with Lawrence they just cant settle with, hence the Freeman move.
15 - Still open, especially with Furbank seemingly never available these days,

Freeman is not as a good a 13 as OL. Whether he could be who knows.

What Freeman is however is the form wing in the NH not sure why you would want to move him to a position that negates one of his strengths which is his aerial skills.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why would it negate his aerial skills?
Joseph Sua'ali'i is one of the best in the world in the air and plays 13
Hell Dan Biggar was a beast under the high ball and he was at 10!

 

[Which Tyler]

Yup, he typically soak tackles and gives up 1-2m whilst getting his man down, mostly he tries to let someone else make the tackle, and he targets the ball for a rip, because that's his job in a 2-man tackle.

But fans prefer to see someone either but back, missed, and offering the ref a penalty/card should they so choose.

 

[Geordie]

Freeman is not as a good a 13 as OL. Whether he could be who knows.

What Freeman is however is the form wing in the NH not sure why you would want to move him to a position that negates one of his strengths which is his aerial skills.

We dont actually know that? Hes played several games at 13, and each time was excellent.

Why does it negate his aerial skills? Its a fantastic addition to have a 13 who has those skills, whilst bringing in another quality winger who ALSO has those skills. The can interchange about the back line comfortably / smoothly.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I see Freeman as the best wing in the premiership and Lawrence as the best 13. But then maybe I’m not seeing something that SB does but what worries me is that he might be driven by some stupid spreadsheet rather than what’s on the pitch as we’ve seen before.

I know there were rumours or clips that Lawrence was lazy getting in line and chasing back etc in previous England games (think it was maybe egg chasers or one of the YouTube things I saw that). But he’s a class player who is a better 13 than Freeman.

CCS concerns me more about the balance of the back row, I know Willis was a shock but we’ve not got any higher back row players which isn’t a good balance.