England v France

[TRF_Cymro]

really? What have the players on our rugby team (or yours for that matter) got to do with something that happened over 100 years ago? By your logic, the Springboks would be fighting internally with themselves because none of them would be able to forgive & forget apartheid.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

really? What have the players on our rugby team (or yours for that matter) got to do with something that happened over 100 years ago? By your logic, the Springboks would be fighting internally with themselves because none of them would be able to forgive & forget apartheid.

Logic has nothing to do with it and I only mentioned it in passing. Just that the AB war still has an effect to a small extent and for a small portion of the population, on the national psyche. TBH I am very sorry that I brought it up in the first place LOL. And the legacy of Apartheid and racism is still a concern in SA at times it is true.

LOL, we can blame the English for Apartheid along with ourselves in that when the Afrikaners took over from Britain we merely formalised the existing British Segregation policies in the constitution.

This is probably not the best thread to discuss political history though but I'll respond if you want me to.

 

[WetAndCold]

Wasn't too long ago; up till recently there were still plenty of people who were directly affected and for us as a small people it is kinda a big deal.

LOL. Should England face SA in the RWC 2011 (my pick for the final; screw the Australasians) all England need to do is apologize (or just actualy recognize) for the concentration camps in the Anglo Boer war and it will take the wind right out of our sails.

Why are you talking about a war on a rugby forum? Rugby's a game and when playing rugby you shouldn't be thinking about a war that happenend a century ago. By your logic I should now look at the SA rugby team and think about all the poor British soldiers who where killed in the Boer war - WTF? That's obviously what you think about when playing England. I hope your joking and the humor has gone straight over my head.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Why are you talking about a war on a rugby forum? Rugby's a game and when playing rugby you shouldn't be thinking about a war that happenend a century ago. By your logic I should now look at the SA rugby team and think about all the poor British soldiers who where killed in the Boer war - WTF? That's obviously what you think about when playing England. I hope your joking and the humor has gone straight over my head.

I am saying that there is a kind of lingering bitterness in the natioanl psyche of a portion of the country and although it has no direct relation to rugby, there still exists a general bitterness towards the English in general. My remarks of this in relation to the Bokke lifting their game when playing the English was supposed to be somewhat of a lark.

*In fact, I think it best to drop it as my comment has clearly not gone the way I intended and lead to a discussion on war. Be it as it may, England is the old enemy and I mean that in the best possible way (and we'll have a beer after) and we lift our game against them and relish facing them.

This is the clash of this 6N IMO with only the Eng/Ire game of importance still if England win it.

 

[Teh Mite]

I am saying that there is a kind of lingering bitterness in the natioanl psyche of a portion of the country and although it has no direct relation to rugby, there still exists a general bitterness towards the English in general. My remarks of this in relation to the Bokke lifting their game when playing the English was supposed to be somewhat of a lark.

*In fact, I think it best to drop it as my comment has clearly not gone the way I intended and lead to a discussion on war. Be it as it may, England is the old enemy and I mean that in the best possible way (and we'll have a beer after) and we lift our game against them and relish facing them.

Makes me think of having a **** in Myles Breens bar in Limerick after last years 1/4 final. 2 ****** up Munster fans walked in, one said "that'll teach you for the past 300 years" while the other threw a punch (and thankfully missed hitting the wall instead - He was quite a big bloke).

My crime? Being English wearing a different top to them. My punishment? As above. The reasoning? For something that some long dead people did years before to some other long dead people.

This whole "the history adds to the spice of it" mantra is just an excuse to behave like a cnut.

 

[WetAndCold]

Why does Britain not feel a general bitterness towards SA then? I'm studying history A level, and have studied the period of time of the boer war. The British lost a great deal of soldiers in that war. Infact, we lost so many, that arguably the main reason the government was voted out of power at the following election was because of the atrocious loss of life. No one who served in that war is still alive. So why does it make South Africans feel bitter? I don't want to talk about it anymore either. I'm just curious as to why people carry feelings of the boer war into a rugby match over 100 years later.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Why does Britain not feel a general bitterness towards SA then? I'm studying history A level, and have studied the period of time of the boer war. The British lost a great deal of soldiers in that war. Infact, we lost so many, that arguably the main reason the government was voted out of power at the following election was because of the atrocious loss of life. No one who served in that war is still alive. So why does it make South Africans feel bitter? I don't want to talk about it anymore either. I'm just curious as to why people carry feelings of the boer war into a rugby match over 100 years later.

A hint; the war was fought in SA...

..with the British coming over firstly to take a port in a then favourable position and then later following the Voortrekkers up North, who had moved to get out under harsh British rule in the first place, to take advantage of the huge gold and diamond reserves uncovered.

That is understandable. What hurts is the genocide of Lord Kitchener in ordering innocents, women and children to be put in 'concentration camps' as he personally called them, starved, raped, and murdered forcing the Boer gorilla forces to surrender. That said, its not all doom and gloom and their were English sympathisers most notably Emily Hophouse who is considered a saint in SA. Research her efforts to 1 stop the war and 2 improve conditons in the camps.

No, my friend, the only people who have a legitimate gripe with us are the SA blacks who suffered decades of not being allowed the same priviledges as whites.

As to blaming the Boers for the unfortunate deaths on both sides, rather blame your own greedy leaders of the time who sent men who were for the most part ignorant of the motivations behind the war other than 'British glory' just as the general man in the street in SA can feel duped and betrayed by our own greedy leaders in denying black South Africans common human rights with half of the common man following blindly.

And yes, these things are part of the past but one must remember the past in order to avoid the mistakes already made. Cliche but very true.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anyone remember discussing (next weeks version of) this match?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Why does Britain not feel a general bitterness towards SA then? I'm studying history A level, and have studied the period of time of the boer war. The British lost a great deal of soldiers in that war. Infact, we lost so many, that arguably the main reason the government was voted out of power at the following election was because of the atrocious loss of life. No one who served in that war is still alive. So why does it make South Africans feel bitter? I don't want to talk about it anymore either. I'm just curious as to why people carry feelings of the boer war into a rugby match over 100 years later.

Jesus, Stormer2010 was hardly making a controversial point and I really don't understand your arguments here: The British should feel a sense of bitterness towards South Africans because many British died in a country not belonging to them!? The government are the only ones the British have any reason to blame, that and western expansionalist tendencies. As far as I can see Stormerfan was just saying that certain memories can be particularly potent in giving voice to identity, particularly if the memories were of significant atrocities (CONCENTRATION CAMPS). Arguably the reason we don't harbour bitterness to the South Africans is due to the fact that we have fought unjustified battles in dozens of countries around the world and if we hated all those countries for defending themselves we'd have no friends.

A nation which is proud of itself will use cogent memories to give itself passion on the sports field, amongst other places. That doesnt mean that the South African rugby team wants to slaughter every one of us, just that histories and cultures beget passion. Its exactly the same as the way we draw on seemingly irrelevant aspects of our history, when we sing the goddamed awful God save the queen which clearly harks back to an era where we clearly did more bad than good around the world.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Anyone remember discussing (next weeks version of) this match?

NO

 

[WetAndCold]

Anyone remember discussing (next weeks version of) this match?

What? Discuss England V France on an England V France thread? Never!

Who is that full back? Can't make out who it is. :huh:

I enjoy games against the French, Since they're the old enemy... oh no wait, everyones Englands old enemy because of wars that happened hundreds of years ago.

I'm worried about this match since I can't remember the last time France where the underdogs going into an England match. They could up their game...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That England kit still gives me the shivers. Some bad times in that kit.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What? Discuss England V France on an England V France thread? Never!

Who is that full back? Can't make out who it is. :huh:

I enjoy games against the French, Since they're the old enemy... oh no wait, everyones Englands old enemy because of wars that happened hundreds of years ago.

I'm worried about this match since I can't remember the last time France where the underdogs going into an England match. They could up their game...

I have a feeling it's Strettle (though why Lewsey wasn't used at FB is beyond me)


Edit:
Odd, I just checked the Six Nations site, and looked at the lineups for that match, according to that Strettle was at 14 and Lewsey was at 15

 

[Teh Mite]

What? Discuss England V France on an England V France thread? Never!

Who is that full back? Can't make out who it is. :huh:

I enjoy games against the French, Since they're the old enemy... oh no wait, everyones Englands old enemy because of wars that happened hundreds of years ago.

I'm worried about this match since I can't remember the last time France where the underdogs going into an England match. They could up their game...

If memory serves, it was either Abendanon or Tait - Although I think Tait was playing 13 at that point.

 

[munstermuffin]

That's Tait with 15 on back.

 

[Teh Mite]

Edit:
Odd, I just checked the Six Nations site, and looked at the lineups for that match, according to that Strettle was at 14 and Lewsey was at 15

Shows what I know. <_<

 

[WetAndCold]

That England kit still gives me the shivers. Some bad times in that kit.

Lol, me too. It's a shame because It actually looks good.

I thought Strettle always played wing? But it does look like him...

Edit: Oh, so It's Tate. I miss Tate, I still remember that awesome break he made in the 07 WC to set up Cueto's disallowed try.

 

[munstermuffin]

Shows what I know. <_<

Bullit isn't that Lewsey looking for hug though.
That 15 is Tait. Nearly sure it is

 

[Teh Mite]

Is the pic from the Six Nations or the pre-World Cup warmup match?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, just noticed the "Investec" flags, that's the pre-world cup match, not Six Nations

It's Abendanon, with Lewsey at 11
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6934847.stm