England to be without finalists for the All Blacks

[psychic duck]

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/206419.html

Stuart Lancaster admits he is powerless to prevent England from playing the first Test of their summer tour to New Zealand with a weakened team. The opening international against the All Blacks is scheduled for June 7, one week after the Aviva Premiership final at Twickenham.As a result, Lancaster is resigned to being unable to field his first-choice side until the second Test on June 14. While still maintaining the series will be a worthwhile exercise, he accepts the scheduling issue will hamstring preparations for the opening international.
"I don't think it renders the series meaningless but it's certainly not ideal," he said. "I wouldn't have chosen this way. There's nothing to be done at this point. It was an inherited situation I found myself in.
"We looked at the calendar but nothing could be moved and my understanding is that it was all set in stone years ago. We'll go into the first Test with 100% commitment to win it. We'll have our Premiership finalists arrive after that and then we'll make decisions for the second Test.
"In my positive mindset it gives opportunities to lads who might not have had the chance to start against the All Blacks. For example if it's a Saracens v Leicester final, Freddie Burns will get a chance to start which is not a bad thing for us. For creating depth it's actually a good thing.
"Around 38 players will go out to New Zealand and have a great rugby experience. My best-case scenario is Newcastle v Sale …"

On the plus side for England if Saracens reach the final at least for once the coaches will be forced to have people other than their Sarries favourites in the backline.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If it were to be a Sarries vs Tigers or Sarries vs Saints final we'd be without 11 or 12 of the current EPS for the first match!
Good job we take extended squads!

 

[Big Ewis]

ah, finally someone else suffering from this ! I know, I know, we're not the only ones...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The problem is when it's a Saints - Tigers final again you will be stuck with:


9 Care
10 Farrell
11 yarde
12 12trees
13 Barritt
14 Ashton
15 Goode

Lancaster won't want to add in a load of new players so will definitely go with the tried testing and proven to be rubbish Sarries players.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Every nation has their problems not just France and England. This is the result of your extended seasons. You have a extended seasons and thus can negotiate more lucrative TV deals and the club setup means rich independent owners can pump money into the game from outside of it (on top stronger economies in general). There are just as many upshots to this as problems.

NZ just doesn't have access to Lord knows how many players that'd waltz into most test sides, no, probably all test sides because of the money available to NH teams. Every good player lost to Aus with their limited player pool is a dagger in the heart, SA has to do all sorts of acrobatics to accommodate some of our better players and simply choose to ignore others playing in the NH. That's not even considering the fact that teams like Argentina and the PI nations have to operate on a basis of all their top players not even being theirs to some extent.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Every nation has their problems not just France and England. This is the result of your extended seasons. You have a extended seasons and thus can negotiate more lucrative TV deals and the club setup means rich independent owners can pump money into the game from outside of it (on top stronger economies in general). There are just as many upshots to this as problems.

NZ just doesn't have access to Lord knows how many players that'd waltz into most test sides, no, probably all test sides because of the money available to NH teams. Every good player lost to Aus with their limited player pool is a dagger in the heart, SA has to do all sorts of acrobatics to accommodate some of our better players and simply choose to ignore others playing in the NH. That's not even considering the fact that teams like Argentina and the PI nations have to operate on a basis of all their top players not even being theirs to some extent.

In your terms it would be like playing New Zealand the same day the two best South African teams are playing in the super 15 final. So playing the all blacks without any bulls or sharks or cheetahs players depending who the best two teams are right now.

New Zealand and Australia could also choose their players who move over seas it's just their policy that stops them not the clubs, so it's decision.

 

[Patchey]

Lancaster has actually said he will use the first test as an opportunity to give some less experienced players a crack at playing in a *big* game. So I'm not too concerned. Hopefully Sarries will get into the final so we're forced to pick players who aren't Farrell, Barrit, Goode etc. The only real loss from Sarries getting into the final would be the Vunnipolas.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

In your terms it would be like playing New Zealand the same day the two best South African teams are playing in the super 15 final. So playing the all blacks without any bulls or sharks or cheetahs players depending who the best two teams are right now.

New Zealand and Australia could also choose their players who move over seas it's just their policy that stops them not the clubs, so it's decision.

The two situation can't be compared.

We simply won't be without our best club sides' players simply because our set-up makes it not a possibility. The downturn is that SA rugby as a whole isn't making as much money as it could so has to deal with top players leaving the country every year. That is the problem resulting from our setup. Even though we chose to select some of the foreign based players the set up is not ideal and there are numerous issues with this. NZ and Aus are in the same boat as us but chose to stay clear of selecting overseas based player for very legitimate reasons.

England and France have it the exact opposite and that is what I was getting at; you can't have it all your way and this is the down turn of the setup England and France has so you need to take it on the chin and deal with it just as other nation's test sides have to deal with the issues coming from their club/provincial setups.

 

[j'nuh]

Lancaster has actually said he will use the first test as an opportunity to give some less experienced players a crack at playing in a *big* game. So I'm not too concerned. Hopefully Sarries will get into the final so we're forced to pick players who aren't Farrell, Barrit, Goode etc. The only real loss from Sarries getting into the final would be the Vunnipolas.

Not sure about the Vunipolas being too missed. Corbs/Marler isn't too much worse than Corbs/Vunipola and Morgan might be the form 8 by that point (hopefully with Kvesic being given a chance at 20).

 

[Patchey]

I think we'd miss Billy at least, the idea of having both him and Morgan in the 23 is pretty appealing. Mako's value depends on his form, which is a bit liable to see-saw, Marler's scrummaging and whether Corbs still has a working knee next summer.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The two situation can't be compared.

We simply won't be without our best club sides' players simply because our set-up makes it not a possibility. The downturn is that SA rugby as a whole isn't making as much money as it could so has to deal with top players leaving the country every year. That is the problem resulting from our setup. Even though we chose to select some of the foreign based players the set up is not ideal and there are numerous issues with this. NZ and Aus are in the same boat as us but chose to stay clear of selecting overseas based player for very legitimate reasons.

England and France have it the exact opposite and that is what I was getting at; you can't have it all your way and this is the down turn of the setup England and France has so you need to take it on the chin and deal with it just as other nation's test sides have to deal with the issues coming from their club/provincial setups.

That's fair I understand where you are coming from, I would like the best of both worlds as we would for every country. I'd feel a cheat if we beat South Africa when they had 6 or so players missing.

At the same time I'm excited to see some of the younger players given a chance.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That's fair I understand where you are coming from, I would like the best of both worlds as we would for every country. I'd feel a cheat if we beat South Africa when they had 6 or so players missing.

At the same time I'm excited to see some of the younger players given a chance.

That's true; it's like Wales losing to Japan in June; the history book will show a win for Japan but in reality one has to qualify that result and, taking nothing away from an ever improving Japan, really Wales should not lose to Japan in the foreseeable future.

 

[j'nuh]

I think we'd miss Billy at least, the idea of having both him and Morgan in the 23 is pretty appealing. Mako's value depends on his form, which is a bit liable to see-saw, Marler's scrummaging and whether Corbs still has a working knee next summer.

The strange thing about Billy/Morgan is that when Morgan came on the England scene, he was that "big ball carrying 8" that England craved. Now that Billy's around, Ben is no longer as "big" as he once seemed... but he does have a better burst of speed. Ben's almost like a back-in-the-pack and can burst the gaps, whereas Billy just runs through people. Great dynamic, and when both are in form, you can potentially pick on the basis of what is right for the match. And with Launchbury to cover the flanks, there's some good coverage too. With Dickinson and Ewers and Clifford before long... I can't believe we're so strong at 8 considering where we were just less than two years ago, playing Dowson I believe...

makes you wonder whether any other positions may be solved out of nowhere within the next two years.

 

[TRF_heineken]

In your terms it would be like playing New Zealand the same day the two best South African teams are playing in the super 15 final. So playing the all blacks without any bulls or sharks or cheetahs players depending who the best two teams are right now.

New Zealand and Australia could also choose their players who move over seas it's just their policy that stops them not the clubs, so it's decision.

Luckily SANZAR isn't that stingy, and they still see the international sides as the main priority/focus. Our SH schedule is made so that a franchise team will not be affected by an international game where SA, NZ or AUS will feature. Apart from this year's B&I Lions tour of course...

 

[Peat]

The strange thing about Billy/Morgan is that when Morgan came on the England scene, he was that "big ball carrying 8" that England craved. Now that Billy's around, Ben is no longer as "big" as he once seemed... but he does have a better burst of speed. Ben's almost like a back-in-the-pack and can burst the gaps, whereas Billy just runs through people. Great dynamic, and when both are in form, you can potentially pick on the basis of what is right for the match. And with Launchbury to cover the flanks, there's some good coverage too. With Dickinson and Ewers and Clifford before long... I can't believe we're so strong at 8 considering where we were just less than two years ago, playing Dowson I believe...

makes you wonder whether any other positions may be solved out of nowhere within the next two years.

He doesn't. He'll create havoc if pointed at a gap, but point him at people and international defenders can handle him. Sure, he'll suck guys in and make a yard more than he should, but his best breaks came from him running at space and people scrambling to try and stop him. Which is the same as Morgan really.

Hopefully the England management will try and arrange for both of them to do that rather than receiving the ball 0.5 seconds before the rush defence gets there. That'd be nice. Also, I'd like a pony, since I'm projecting unrealistic hopes on the England management.

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/206419.html



On the plus side for England if Saracens reach the final at least for once the coaches will be forced to have people other than their Sarries favourites in the backline.

If you think this is bad, its going to get worse if the clubs do get total control of European domestic rugby. You'll be lucky to get some of your top players no matter when international matches are scheduled.

 

[Maverick1987]

If you think this is bad, its going to get worse if the clubs do get total control of European domestic rugby. You'll be lucky to get some of your top players no matter when international matches are scheduled.

The irb still have control . The regulation area of the last 4 weeks says international teams can have the players wether the clubs like it or not it's only because England and NZ choose not to pick outside of their home playing player pool that some still play in their clubs . Of which I think it's a perfect way to do it maintain control of those players in those weeks . English clubs won't make it financially without the RFU anyway

 

[The Jones Boy]

Excuses excuses, I don't know... The AB's come up to Twickenham every year and yet it's been ELEVEN years since the Poms went down to Middle earth and they're making excuses already?
Aye carumba...

 

[Maverick1987]

Excuses excuses, I don't know... The AB's come up to Twickenham every year and yet it's been ELEVEN years since the Poms went down to Middle earth and they're making excuses already?
Aye carumba...

Troll ........

Do you post on Facebook how depressed you are too so you can get a few likes ?

Don't come here looking for attention mate .

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Stating a fact is an excuse?

How about we start wheeling out the favoured excuse from down under: This tour is at the end of our season, whereas the SH teams will be in their season - we're too tired (especially as the international Aviva players play a lot more rugby than the SH).