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England - Squad Announcement Thursday 27th

I agree, the frustration is we could be so much better but we're going in as "in with a chance" rather than a real force. I think I'd have us as third equal favourites, personally? So hard to put a number on these things but New Zealand and South Africa clearly top two, the three of us in the group of death plus Ireland all in with a reasonable shout depending how our group goes - bear in mind the winner of our group only has to beat 1 of NZ and SA to win. World Cups come down to one-off games under immense pressure, any number of teams have just clicked at the right time to win a one-off game over the years.

Yeah, didn't mention south Africa for a reason which is that they've lost a number of games on the trot and look wayward... but I do agree that a number of average teams have welded together when it mattered and done well (see England 2007).
 
Not sure what this is about but Will is one of the better pundits to my mind as a rule!!

OK what I mean is hes not very objectionable, hes all "the team are so great!" bouncing round like a yo yo. Just look at the write up he did on the 31 selected players you would think they had the WC in the bag with such a fantasic group of players. Reminds me of Ian Wright talking about the England soccer team.
 
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OK what I mean is hes not very objectionable, hes all "the team are so great!" bouncing round like a yo yo. Just look at the write up he did on the 31 selected players you would think they had the WC in the bag with such a fantasic group of players. Reminds me of Ian Wright talking about the England soccer team.

He's just optomistic! I love to see the pride ooze out of people, I think we will Win and I don't how absurd it sounds or how much the odds are against us.. Starting to well up a little..
 
He's just optomistic! I love to see the pride ooze out of people, I think we will Win and I don't how absurd it sounds or how much the odds are against us.. Starting to well up a little..

Is that you Will? admit it Backy was on a different tread today
 
Alright guys, seeing as we're coming out with our real identities I guess I have to own up.

I am Jonny Wilkinson.
 
Idle theory - as the best lineout organiser and leader among our locks, Geoff Parling is now our most important second row, due to the paucity of direction and the dodginess of our lineout.

Thoughts?
 
Idle theory - as the best lineout organiser and leader among our locks, Geoff Parling is now our most important second row, due to the paucity of direction and the dodginess of our lineout.

Thoughts?

Play him at 6 - as Tigers fans won't let us forget: He beat South Africa playing there

:p



Obv not really an option now, but it could've worked and left a place for Attwood in the donkey row. I just feel we don't have enough grunt in the second row in the scrum.
 
Did I ever mention how Leicester Tigers beat the then current World Cup champions SA at Welford road with Parling @6 and A young Manu @ 12?

Off to find the video.
 
Did I ever mention how Leicester Tigers beat the then current World Cup champions SA at Welford road with Parling @6 and A young Manu @ 12?

Off to find the video.

I don't think you have, how forgetful of you.
 
I have to say that I am dumbstruck that Lancaster et al have select Burgess, an Union International with one Cap in a meaningless warm-up game, out of position over a host of other far more appropriate players. Can Burgess really be considered a better play (i.e reader of the game) than even his Club mate Kyle Eastmond whom Burgess failed to oust from Bath's starting line up last season ( when we were told he was still learning the game) and was instead switched to Flanker. And hasn't Luther Burell show enough big game ability at both Club and International level to warrant selection? As for Cipriani, why has Lancaster included him in the squad, he's never been given a chance to play in his preferred position of 10 and yet whenever he has come on he has not disgraced himself (i.e. been sent off Burgess) and, given a 17 min runout at Centre last week, showed soft hands, intelligent running lines and timing of the pass that helped turn a shambles into a ordered attack. Andy Farrell stated that the selection has been based on Facts, what Facts exactly? I'm not aware of any facts where Burgess would line up against any of these three and have a stronger case.

Lancaster has a bit of an obsession with Rugby League ( how many chances did he give Ashton ) and has long has a romantic notion that he will uncover another League convert like Jason Robinson but the mere fact that more column inches has been dedicated to this one, completely unproven player, and that the Coaching staff has gone out of their way to praise his leadership qualities and his all around ability whereas most Players are selected on pure merit and don't need a dozen news paper articles to spin their selection smacks of favouritism. Is Lancaster saying that Burgess would be ready o face NZ in the opening game of the World Cup Tournement if that had been our schedule instead of Fiji? Is he suggesting that Burgess will somehow 'play himself in' over the course of the Tournament? NZ would target Burgess and cut him to pieces. Any of the top 6 teams we need to beat to win the Competition would do the same - he's just not ready. Apart from his physical attributes his positional play is still naive and he's just not quick or fast enough to play Centre at this level. We love the to see mismatches in a game when a Centre comes up against a front 5 player but, with Burgess, most of the opposition, Pack or Backs, will have the edge on him for speed and guile - he will be toasted. It's not fair to put Burgess in that position. And how does that sit with the rest or the squad- knowing that they have to cover for him? Bottom line is that Burgess has just not earn the right to pull on the white shirt, he's not put in the hours or graft - he's a 'cause celeb' not a first choice International Union Centre.

Lancaster has done a fine job of stabilising the ship after the disaster of the Jonson era but he is, by nature, Conservative in his choices and strategy. He's not an innovative Team manager/ coach ( in the way that Woodward was and still is). He's reached the limits of his ability and this fact will be sorely exposed in Competition. His lack of investment and development in talent in the last 18 months leading into this Tournament has been mystifying.He missed the opportunity to bring Ford into the fold earlier, or to give Cipriani a go at 10 ( against Italy or Scotland). He can't even take credit for selecting Watson and Joseph who have been the source of most of our recent tries as his hand was forced by injury. Given that the Fiji game is a must-win game, it will be interesting to see if he selects Farell to start at 10 against Fiji (conservative) or Ford. If it is Farell I think it say's it all..... and my prediction is that we'll not make it our of our Pool an that Lancaster will have to go. And then what? If we had the balls we'd look to Mike Ford and Shaun Edwards to take us to the next World Cup. They have to vision and belief in talent to develop a Team that could challenge for to be World Champions.

Now to watch the Wales Vs Ireland game...
 
When has Luther Burrell sown 'big game ability' at international level? Also, Cips has never played centre (he played 15 vs France), and lets face it, he was never going to get in as a 10 ahead of the 2 who Lancaster has invested caps and time into. His only other chance was as a utility fly half who could also cover 15, but with Brown stapled in and SL's love affair with Goode, plus Watson covering 15 too, there wasn't a place for Cips. Slade covered more positions, and covered positions which England needed cover in more (centres). Eastman will never really fit into the England setup, he's too small for Lancaster's idea of a 12 - especially when Joseph is certain to start at 13.
 
I agree, the frustration is we could be so much better but we're going in as "in with a chance" rather than a real force. I think I'd have us as third equal favourites, personally? So hard to put a number on these things but New Zealand and South Africa clearly top two, the three of us in the group of death plus Ireland all in with a reasonable shout depending how our group goes - bear in mind the winner of our group only has to beat 1 of NZ and SA to win. World Cups come down to one-off games under immense pressure, any number of teams have just clicked at the right time to win a one-off game over the years.

hmmm dunno if there is a clear and obvious top two in all honesty. after New Zealand I think a bunch of teams have the same sort of chance. French are liable to do anything. Ireland are obviously very strong but imo could get finals jitters. Australia aren't exactly the behemoth they are at home on neutral grounds. England have concerns but obviously home advantage. And even by the admission of the SA posters, it's not looking like the Boks year (of course, anything can happen, but I don't think that's a mantra that rings more true for South Africa than the other teams)
 
How exactly is selecting Burgess conservative?

Youngs, Care, Ford, Eastmond (even though he didn't make it now), Slade, Joseph, Burrell at 13, May, Watson... how are any of these conservative picks? Checking out Itoje, Daly, George, LCD is not conservative either. If he doesn't pick the flavour of the month he gets accused of being conservative, and when he does, and they don't go as well as expected, he's accused of chopping and changing too much.

Cips has cemented his spot as first guy called up should a 10 or a 15 get crocked. And lets be honest, does anyone think Brown can get all the way through without picking up a concussion? The 31 is not going to be the same at the end of the tournament, and they need to know who outside of it should be coming in. The forwards are all rather straight forward, the backs are a mess (both due to selection, but also injury and form.
 
Guscott did a good right up, saying that Burgess brings a presence off the pitch, in the changing room and training paddock.
He's played on the biggest stages and has huge game mentality, I can imagine he brings a lot to the table vocally to the players.
Something Andy Farrell was saying that it's not just about on the field, it's about the stuff we don't see as spectators during the week and in the back room..
Apart from having some Stardust and bringing a big carrying game to 12, I think the things I've said above have contributed to his selection.
 
Guscott did a good right up, saying that Burgess brings a presence off the pitch, in the changing room and training paddock.
He's played on the biggest stages and has huge game mentality, I can imagine he brings a lot to the table vocally to the players.
Something Andy Farrell was saying that it's not just about on the field, it's about the stuff we don't see as spectators during the week and in the back room..
Apart from having some Stardust and bringing a big carrying game to 12, I think the things I've said above have contributed to his selection.

So he would make a good coach then? Still untried and untested at this level and shouldnt be there.
 
So he would make a good coach then? Still untried and untested at this level and shouldnt be there.

I do sigh at comments like this, referring to the first part, if you play rugby, on the pitch and off it you look for leaders, people you can look to and think I'm glad that guys next to me he's going to pick me up when needed and is going to put me in the right mind set.. If you don't play, then you won't understand..
Your right he isn't tried and tested, but that's the risk SL has taken..
 
I do sigh at comments like this, referring to the first part, if you play rugby, on the pitch and off it you look for leaders, people you can look to and think I'm glad that guys next to me he's going to pick me up when needed and is going to put me in the right mind set.. If you don't play, then you won't understand..
Your right he isn't tried and tested, but that's the risk SL has taken..

But surely you have to be in the side on merit first ? I have played at grass roots level and it was more social than anything else but to be in the elite of a counties rugby players you need more than just a presence and being able to gee up your mates. They shouldnt need geeing up in the first place at that level.

And I sigh too because people can only point to Burgusses inclusion on the grounds that hes a good egg, a face in the squad, well sorry you need more than that to play International rugby. It reminds me of 2007 when Farrell senior was selected for roughly the same reason: hes got mental strength! Hes a natural leader! Great big game temperament! Didnt matter that they didnt know what his best postiton was, he was in to provide leadership which he did as a coach in latter but was a failure as a player and someone more deserving missed out because of it.
 

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