England Six Nations Squad 2012

[gingergenius]

Then it can go wrong and they can learn from their mistakes.

What's going to happen in a years' time when we're 12-6 down in Cardiff and Robshaw and Wood look around and see Morgan there, who's never been there before?

England should be picking their strongest squad that will be around in 2015.

Their first aim should be developing a style of play that works to the strengths of the current setup - which, IMO, would be developing a solid set piece and forward pressure, which is punished by a good goalkicker (like Farrell); having all slow ball kicked away for territory by a guy who's good at that (like Farrell); using big carriers (Morgan, Tuilagi) to break the gainline and generate quick ball, and using Youngs, Foden etc. to exploit it.

This won't always work. The players need to get used to the style of play, and to each other. But, in theory, come the end of 2012 England should have had about 10 tests in which to do so. In theory, results should start picking up. And then, the environment is perfect to bring in whichever new players then emerge - where they can know their place in the system. That's how the All Blacks do it. They're the best in the world. That's how we should do it.

It was all going so well in 2010, from the France game in the 6N (albeit 2 years too late). Good performance against France, lost. Same with Australia. Then beat Aus. Then lost vs ABs despite playing well. Beat Aus, play amazing. Lose to SA, don't pay too badly and suffer injury issues. Stuff Italy. 6 Nations. People start talking about winning because people remember there's a world cup just around the corner. Winning becomes more important than performance. The rest is history.

That's why we must start NOW, and that's why we get rid of Easter etc., which in fairness to Lancaster, he's done. Great teams don't emerge overnight straight from **** teams. We began 2010 as a **** team, we ended it as a decent team, and then regressed to a **** team again. We need to make sure that though we might be a **** team now, we should be a decent team next year and a good team the year after. And once we're a good team, I want us to start behaving like the ABs and bloody well stay that way.​

 

[Daniel Richards]

Well take the Northampton Saints main England five they have around 100 caps between them now. Look at Wales key players such as Priestland, Halfpenny, Faletau, North, Lydiate around 80 caps.

So if the Welsh players can stand toe to toe on a wet muddy pitch together. I would expect an England team to be capable of doing that too.

Wood and Robshaw are both thought of as possible leaders. Hartley does it for the Saints. So the team are not short on leaders and if there heads go down and they are not giving it 100% I would expect them to get dropped from the squad.

Ok your right 96 caps take lawes out of that and foden and ashton cos one is injured and the other two are not really in the trenches . England's pack will have a average of 21 caps . Yes your right woods and robshaw leaders but not at international level , doing it at club level is very different from leading at international level they are all unproven at it ?

 

[Saintjay]

Yes but your main point was people with experience and that can set examples. You still have Robshaw, Wood, Hartley who can pretty much lead to some degree. You still have three in the eight and say Foden Hodgson Ashden in the backs with Lawes, Flood, Tuilagi all set to return. I just don't think it is as bad as it seems.

Sam Warburton was pretty unproven as a captain as well 7 or 8 games ago.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just because they haven't been at international level doesn't mean they'll automatically implode.
Robshaw has captained his team to a Euro trophy, winning away in Thomond Park in the process - not as if he's not been up against it before.

I don't get where you've got this idea of Easter being the worlds greatest leader from?
He doesn't inspire people with his performances, and doesn't seem like he's the greatest team talker with "Well...there goes our win bonus" when England get knocked out of the WC.

 

[Daniel Richards]

Just because they haven't been at international level doesn't mean they'll automatically implode.
Robshaw has captained his team to a Euro trophy, winning away in Thomond Park in the process - not as if he's not been up against it before.

I don't get where you've got this idea of Easter being the worlds greatest leader from?
He doesn't inspire people with his performances, and doesn't seem like he's the greatest team talker with "Well...there goes our win bonus" when England get knocked out of the WC.

I don't think he is the worlds greatest leader but starting with a back row of under 50 caps and one is the captain is just asking for trouble. Are first 2 games are away !

 

[Aedaphon]

I don't think he is the worlds greatest leader but starting with a back row of under 50 caps and one is the captain is just asking for trouble. Are first 2 games are away !

Sam Warburton 38, Dan Lydiate 20, Toby Faletau 11

That's 69 caps all counted and I would not replace a single one of those with Ryan Jones just because he has 58 caps and would therefore be a 'steady hand'.

All three of those players are by most international standards relatively untested, but because they've performed consistently at club level and been started consistently at international level I would be more confident of selecting all three in my back row of choice.

England have to build to the level that Wales are at right now.

 

[m0rris]

England could put out some impressive backroow combos without a significant number of caps, e.g. Seymour, Fearns and Morgan. There you'd have a total of 1 (IIRC) cap and still have a pretty potent backrow, alternatively you could put out Moody, Easter and, were he not injured, Worsley where you'd have hundreds of caps but a pretty poor backrow.

Now is the time to start fiddling and accepting that we'll lose a few matches; we should be chopping and changing around players until the last six nations before the RWC. Looking at it from a Bath perspective we currently have Palma-Newport, Catt, Heathcote, Cook, Fearns and Williams who all have the potential to make the grade and play well for England within the next couple of years. Some will be good enough to player in a years time others in two but England have to try them out, should they continue to develop their promise, to see whether it increases the chance of winning the 2015 RWC. I'd much rather we had some appaulling performances from a couple of young centres but eventually found "the one" than put up with years and stodgy centre work... nothing ventured nothing gained.

It's for this reason that I think the RFU managed to balls up fairly quickly in the programme of the england "rebuild" there should have been a temporary lifting of the limit on the number of players that could be changed so that lancaster could have made "his" squad rather that a squad that has the leftovers of the previous regime.

 

[Peat]

I may not agree with GG on what England's strengths are but just about everything else he said in that post is right.

Daniel - I accept there is currently a void of leadership and that most of our candidates to step forwards and move it on are inexperienced. However, I would rather have an inexperienced man who is nevertheless a natural leader, than to impose the role on someone who is not; it is more likely to go well and if it does not, then that man has learned and will be stronger for next time. I wish our strongest back-row contained more experience, but it doesn't; I am happy to back our strongest back-row and it goes wrong, they will have learned.

Ultimately, I agree with your point, but think its a bigger gamble in terms of setting the right example, developing the squad and crucially getting the result to pick Easter. Pick the lesser of two evils and remember that experience is an asset, not a must-have.

 

[Daniel Richards]

I may not agree with GG on what England's strengths are but just about everything else he said in that post is right.

Daniel - I accept there is currently a void of leadership and that most of our candidates to step forwards and move it on are inexperienced. However, I would rather have an inexperienced man who is nevertheless a natural leader, than to impose the role on someone who is not; it is more likely to go well and if it does not, then that man has learned and will be stronger for next time. I wish our strongest back-row contained more experience, but it doesn't; I am happy to back our strongest back-row and it goes wrong, they will have learned.

Ultimately, I agree with your point, but think its a bigger gamble in terms of setting the right example, developing the squad and crucially getting the result to pick Easter. Pick the lesser of two evils and remember that experience is an asset, not a must-have.

True experience is an asset not a must have , but let me put this to you we lose 3/4 of the six nation games Stuart Lancaster is replaced as coach , the new coach dumps all the less experience guys for the old guard because he does not want to start his regin with a tour of hell and we are back to square one . Or Stuart Lancaster picks a young squad with 2/3 old guard we win 3/4 six nations and he keeps his job and then loses the old guard for the tour ?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think with the short amount of time that england do have together we will see a similar game plan/plans to that of some of the top 4 clubs. That way your not having to teach players how to play all over again.

I think there is a slight element of picking players from less clubs so that there is more unity and a bit more of the same ideas and play styles through the camp.

We know that the saffas backs work well together Hodgson, Farrell & Barritt so its good they are there in a unit.
Same for the saints backrow Wood, Clark and Dawson.
I doubt these combos will start as units but in training i think it will make a big difference. Thats my theory.

I think if you have players who are used to playing together with the same style that is way more experience than england caps. The old england way of playing relied on certain rubbish players to focus the others to remind them to play the game plan (which was to loose and loose boringly).

 

[gingergenius]

We're touring South Africa this summer.

Firstly, a new coach would have to be a complete ****ing idiot to reinstate the 'old guard' straight after the 6N. I really, honestly mean it - it would be stupidity on the same level as the RFU going 'hey Jonny Wilkinson, you're a legend of the game - how about being England coach?'. It would show that England not only failed to learn any lessons after the deceptive 2007 RWC, but also after four more years of arsing around.

If that is stupid because of lessons learnt from the past, you know what else is? Picking a bunch of the 'old guard' now, realising come the Summer that they've had a long, hard season, need operations, and therefore sending a rookie team on tour to get hammered. What would you rather have, an inexperienced team playing Scotland and Italy who are poor teams, playing Wales at home (who are very much beatable despite how much they're talked up) compared to an inexperienced side playing SA away???

England, I reckon, should be delighted with a 3/5 record in the 6N. Even 2/5 wouldn't be awful, so long as they play well. They should expect to beat Italy, and they should expect to win one of the home games against Ireland or Wales. Beating Scotland is eminently possible too.

 

[RetiredRog]

How many chances is Charlie Hodgson gonna get? He has proved he's a fine club player but also proved he's sadly a no hoper at test level. Sir Clive, Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton gave him loads of oppertunities...he 'aint good enough.
Also how can Strettle be picked in front of Bannahan? The big fella would be awesome if used properly.

 

[Daniel Richards]

How many chances is Charlie Hodgson gonna get? He has proved he's a fine club player but also proved he's sadly a no hoper at test level. Sir Clive, Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton gave him loads of oppertunities...he 'aint good enough.
Also how can Strettle be picked in front of Bannahan? The big fella would be awesome if used properly.

I Would not say a no hoper at test level it's just his defence that is suspect and he's worked on that , bannahan v strettle I think the coaches are going for speed and guile over brute force !

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't particularly like Strettle (however he has improved a lot since moving to Saracens) but to say Banahan should be there instead of him is like liquidising his family dog and force feeding him it.

 

[Peat]

True experience is an asset not a must have , but let me put this to you we lose 3/4 of the six nation games Stuart Lancaster is replaced as coach , the new coach dumps all the less experience guys for the old guard because he does not want to start his regin with a tour of hell and we are back to square one . Or Stuart Lancaster picks a young squad with 2/3 old guard we win 3/4 six nations and he keeps his job and then loses the old guard for the tour ?

First off, Lancaster will almost definitley not keep his job whatever happens, and has picked his squad in acceptance of that fact.

Secondly, I believe we're more likely to win 3/4 6N games with this squad than with a team containing the likes of Easter, Cueto and Tindall.

Finally - Palmer and Deacon have both been around for a while, Flood is near 50 caps, Croft's a Lion, Hartley's got about 30 - does that qualify as 2/3 old guard?

I don't particularly like Strettle (however he has improved a lot since moving to Saracens) but to say Banahan should be there instead of him is like liquidising his family dog and force feeding him it.

Except that Banahan is a genuine left winger, while every winger at the squad plays on the right. They're not the same. Banahan offers a different type of threat as well.

Not that I'd have picked Banahan, but it would look better balanced there (I'd have picked Benjamin).

 

[dullonien]

There is no excuse for Banahan.

Also lol @ Olyy for the liquidising dog comment. How long did it take you to come up with that one?

 

[Aedaphon]

I don't particularly like Strettle (however he has improved a lot since moving to Saracens) but to say Banahan should be there instead of him is like liquidising his family dog and force feeding him it.

I nearly ****** myself.

Both players have had their strong games for their club sides but Banahan has had plenty of opportunities in the England squad while Strettle has had almost nothing. I feel Strettle is a better all round player (even if Banahan adds something in the form of Diet Alesana Tuilagi) but regardless of that he deserves a chance to prove himself far more than Banahan.

 

[j-dawg]

Why?!

In my own personal opinion the only second row we had in the world cup that played decently was Shaw, despite his age.

 

[j'nuh]

After the Ulster match, I wouldn't be too surprised if Leicester had no players starting in the XV against Scotland. Stevens, Robshaw and Dickson ahead of Cole, Croft, Youngs and Flood, Deacon, Tuilagi injured...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's England: Youngs, Croft and Cole will all start, they'll probably roll out deacon in a wheel chair too.


Youngs is absolute gash at the moment though.
Simpson is out of form atm but would be a better option.