England Saxons future

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hey so with the Saxons giving a good result in South Africa, I was wondering what people knew about the future for the Saxons? Will it be used as an A team/development squad with more time together and plenty of international games, maybe even against weaker national teams, or will it remain as it was before, something that is pulled out and dusted off every so often for novelty value?

Personally I'd love to see the Saxons as a connector between U20 and the seniors, a testing ground for players and a "probables" squad, everyone in the Saxons is in competition with the seniors and the 2 are used together to get a view of as many players as possible and try to drastically increase our depth in international experience.

 

[Tony Manx]

It would be great to keep the squad and, as you say, play against 2 tier sides to develop their rugby and expose younger players to international rugby!!

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Eddie seems to be much more interested in the development of young players than Lancaster was, so I can definitely see the Saxons being used as the England developmental side much more often now. It'd be good to see them play some of the lesser international sides like Fiji and Italy so that they can get a feel for international rugby without taking a beating.

 

[AzaMatt]

wales A team being resurrected as well, althought we would get smashed by the saxons it will do the Wales guys a world of good playing against the quality of the saxons, the depth in england disgusts me haha

 

[BPM]

It would be great to see more of these games, but the problem with the Saxons is finding meaningful fixtures for them to play.

We now have a huge depth of players and could have put out at least another strong XV alongside the squads that went to Australia and South Africa, even without any of the U20s players, but there aren't that many countries that would be able to field competitive second teams with any consistency.

The current set-up where the leagues still run during the international windows would also mean that the clubs wouldn't want any Saxons (or equivalent) fixtures at the same time as their senior international players are away, so unless there's a complete international break for the leagues, I can only ever see these games being played in the off-season.

 

[Tony Manx]

It would be great to see more of these games, but the problem with the Saxons is finding meaningful fixtures for them to play.

We now have a huge depth of players and could have put out at least another strong XV alongside the squads that went to Australia and South Africa, even without any of the U20s players, but there aren't that many countries that would be able to field competitive second teams with any consistency.

The current set-up where the leagues still run during the international windows would also mean that the clubs wouldn't want any Saxons (or equivalent) fixtures at the same time as their senior international players are away, so unless there's a complete international break for the leagues, I can only ever see these games being played in the off-season.

What about opposition provided by first teams of 2nd tier teams?

 

[j'nuh]

It would be great to see more of these games, but the problem with the Saxons is finding meaningful fixtures for them to play.

New Zealand and France have the depth to give the Saxons a meaningful game, but for some reason it never happens.

The first teams for Italy, Japan, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would be good fixtures, but I reckon these teams are after more than second team opposition.

With a little effort and creativity, I'd love to see a series of Saxons vs. a combined second team of Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Three matches, one in each of the non-English countries.

 

[BPM]

New Zealand and France have the depth to give the Saxons a meaningful game, but for some reason it never happens.

The first teams for Italy, Japan, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would be good fixtures, but I reckon these teams are after more than second team opposition.

With a little effort and creativity, I'd love to see a series of Saxons vs. a combined second team of Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Three matches, one in each of the non-English countries.

I really like the 'home nations' idea, but unfortunately I don't see it being in the individual countries' interests to enough of an extent that they would agree to do it, which is a shame.

2nd tier teams would be good opposition, but I think Italy, Japan and Fiji would see themselves as being capable of giving our senior team a game so I can't see them agreeing to play Saxons fixtures.

Teams like Georgia and Romania who are out to prove they can compete at a higher level would be ideal and I'd love to see it, but I just don't see when the Saxons fixtures could take place apart from the end of the season, which restricts it to 1-2 games per year at the maximum.

Playing NZ and France's equivalent to the Saxons would also be great and I also have no idea why it's never happened?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I don't see what benefits Ireland, Wales and Scotland would get out of it TBH.

All have had a good U20's and will be wanting to move some up to their own A teams.

Personally I would like to see Saxons tour teams like USA, Canada, Georgia, Romania, Fiji, Tonga, Namibia and Japan.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I don't see what benefits Ireland, Wales and Scotland would get out of it TBH.

All have had a good U20's and will be wanting to move some up to their own A teams.

Personally I would like to see Saxons tour teams like USA, Canada, Georgia, Romania, Fiji, Tonga, Namibia and Japan.

this so much, use them as rugby ambassadors to play emerging nations (not crap teams, but mediocre ones) so that people outside of rugby hotbeds can see high quality rugby

 

[Which Tyler]

this so much, use them as rugby ambassadors to play emerging nations (not crap teams, but mediocre ones) so that people outside of rugby hotbeds can see high quality rugby

Yep, absolutely - the old Churchill Cup was great (IMO). Send the Saxons out on tour during the June internationals; and maybe play them to clash with the Anglo-Welsh Cup malarky.
Of course, the trouble with that theory is that the IRB is actually getting it's act together with decent, cimpetitive matches for the 2nd tier natiosn during June (Georgia's tour of the PIs etc); though I'm sure there's enough slipping through that net to host the Saxons (Romania, Spain, Portugal, Russia). As for preferring to play England 1st XV instead - maybe, but beat the Saxons a couple of times and you've really earned the right to play the seniors.

 

[BPM]

Yep, absolutely - the old Churchill Cup was great (IMO). Send the Saxons out on tour during the June internationals; and maybe play them to clash with the Anglo-Welsh Cup malarky.
Of course, the trouble with that theory is that the IRB is actually getting it's act together with decent, cimpetitive matches for the 2nd tier natiosn during June (Georgia's tour of the PIs etc); though I'm sure there's enough slipping through that net to host the Saxons (Romania, Spain, Portugal, Russia). As for preferring to play England 1st XV instead - maybe, but beat the Saxons a couple of times and you've really earned the right to play the seniors.

100% this.

A North America tour including USA and Canada or a PI tour would be great and to themole25's point, I see the Saxons being an ideal test for emerging nations.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

100% this.

A North America tour including USA and Canada or a PI tour would be great and to themole25's point, I see the Saxons being an ideal test for emerging nations.

It would also be more entertaining for fans just coming into rugby.

As shown the Saxons are looking to play a wider game, than they did last time i saw them play (V Wolfhounds a couple of years ago).

 

[BPM]

Given the reports that Eddie will be naming a 45 man EPS, I guess the new question is how the increased squad will affect the Saxons. Presumably you can't be in the EPS and also be selected for the Saxons?

Previously, the Saxons was pretty much a 'next best' squad that was picked irrespective of age/experience etc.

They could easily have picked players like Twelvetrees, Foden, Tait etc. but The squad that went to SA wasn't that. There was an element of it with the likes of Attwood and Brookes, but for the most part, it was a group of young, largely uncapped players which suggests that it is being viewed as much more of a development squad.

I may be wrong, but it looks as though they are now positioning it as a graduation from the U20s combined with a motivational tool for slightly more established players who they believe have the potential to make it at test level - for example, McGuigan and Craig in the last squad.

I'm working on the assumption that the extended squad will take Brookes, Attwood, Robson, Rokoduguni, Taylor and possibly Cipriani from the Saxons squad and maybe Evans and Mallinder as the two U20 graduates Eddie implied.

If that's the case, my 30-man Saxons squad would be something like (form and injury permitting):

1. Hepburn / Auterac
2. J. Walker / McGuigan
3. Thomas / Sinckler
4. Ewels
5. Barrow / Symons
6. Ewers / M. Williams / Nott (covering lock as well)
7. Kvesic / Ludlam
8. Morgan / Armand
9. Harrison / Spencer
10. F. Burns / Lozowski
11. Lewington / Addison
12. Eastmond / J. Williams
13. James / Tompkins / Marchant
14. Wade
15. Haley / Malins

Other possible/probables: Harry Thacker, Mike Haywood, James Gaskell, Sam Twomey, Micky Young, Billy Burns, Sam Hill, Ollie Devoto, Simon Hammersley

Clearly that squad would be lacking in caps (only 6 capped players by my reckoning) but I've tried to make the squad fit the purposes of a development/hang-in-there ethos. Walker, Nott, Marchant and Malins are my U20 graduates (+ Ludlam) while Eastmond and Morgan are my 'don't write me off yet' candidates and Burns and Thomas are in the capped, but 4th or 5th choice category.

I may be wrong, but with the U20 development route proving to be fruitful, I honestly think it will be an uphill struggle for several, very good uncapped players who are 25/26+ to break in to the test reckoning now. I could easily have picked the likes of Slater, Kitchener, Gibson, Fraser, Wallace etc. but I think their chances of breaking through are limited with players like Ewels, Evans or Underhill seemingly being the preferred options. I think Morgan and Armand are the only players I selected over 26.

All in all, it really shows our depth and done well, I think it's a great way of progressing promising players through to the test squad, but the crucial thing is still getting decent games against appropriate opposition.

It also shows I've got way too much time on my hands ...

 

[Which Tyler]

Basically - we don't know.
With the first team squad increasing by 50% I'd imagine that the SEPS is being ditched (as a sop to the club for the enlargement, and delay in naming the EPS); and I'd kinda expect the saxons teams to be picked as the coach likes; probably a mix of senior squad and others.
Removing the SEPS also gives Eddie free reign when it comes to naming replacements for his senior squad - Burt got around it by naming saxons replacements, then seniors, with further saxons replacements; but any mid-tournament injuries and his hands were tied to selecting from the SEPS - hence using them as essentially a 2nd XV.