England Rugby 2019/20 Thread

[BPM]

May was just quick when he started for England and massivly developed. If we have the likes of May Watson Nowell then take Joe as a project(not this Autumn obv) is not really as risk but i dont think McConnechie will ever be first choice for England and especially not going forward. If he gets some gametime for Bath then the 6N 2021 id like to see him given a shot. Thorley does deserve a shot though he is a class player.

Except when May was coming through, there wasn't an incumbent of the same standard he is now. It was worth taking a risk on his development because there wasn't an obviously better alternative.

If you want Cokanasiga to start, you have to drop May or Watson. That would be hard to justify IMO.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is Joe really that quick?
Like I know he's no slouch, but I've never seen him burn anyone the way that someone like May or Rees-Zammit does
I find it hard to believe he's fastest in the bath squad

 

[Scotty]

Except when May was coming through, there wasn't an incumbent of the same standard he is now. It was worth taking a risk on his development because there wasn't an obviously better alternative.

If you want Cokanasiga to start, you have to drop May or Watson. That would be hard to justify IMO.

We have Watson and slade that can play FB in a game so on field FB cover now starting at 23 isnt a risk and he will only get better by playing. Im saying is with him staying fit and playing next year not Autumn obv.

 

[Scotty]

Is Joe really that quick?
Like I know he's no slouch, but I've never seen him burn anyone the way that someone like May or Rees-Zammit does
I find it hard to believe he's fastest in the bath squad

I read online he is quicker than Watson and JJ(was an article in the sun i think). He was running at over 10m per second. Id be interested to see may vs big joe. Also didnt LRZ looks quicker than may atm though no idea if thats true

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is Joe really that quick?
Like I know he's no slouch, but I've never seen him burn anyone the way that someone like May or Rees-Zammit does
I find it hard to believe he's fastest in the bath squad

I wouldn't have him in the team ATM either but he is blisteringly fast. Can't imagine he accelerates as well as Watson or May but over 100m with his extra stride length I can definitely believe he'd be faster than both.


Jordan Larmour's a fast guy but look at how much distance Cokonasiga makes up on him in a very short amount of time/space after having to turn around at ~1:15 in this video.

 

[BPM]

'Credit in the bank' is important in test rugby IMO. As long as it's used in the right way.

I really like Thorley and I think he could do well for England, but May has been one of our best players for some time and I know based upon ample evidence that he can and will deliver at test level. He hasn't been in sparkling form since the restart, but he hasn't played poorly either.

At the same time, I wouldn't pick a player who is totally out of form based upon previous performance. For example, as I said earlier in the thread, I am of the opinion that Billy really doesn't warrant a call up right now and has a bunch of players really pushing for his spot.

I think picking him sends out the wrong message. I don't see that with May.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We can experiment in the 8N but, assuming fitness, it's hard to look beyond May and Watson as 2 of the back 3 for proper matches in the next couple of years. Question is what shirt number Watson wears.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

'Credit in the bank' is important in test rugby IMO. As long as it's used in the right way.

I really like Thorley and I think he could do well for England, but May has been one of our best players for some time and I know based upon ample evidence that he can and will deliver at test level. He hasn't been in sparkling form since the restart, but he hasn't played poorly either.

At the same time, I wouldn't pick a player who is totally out of form based upon previous performance. For example, as I said earlier in the thread, I am of the opinion that Billy really doesn't warrant a call up right now and has a bunch of players really pushing for his spot.

I think picking him sends out the wrong message. I don't see that with May.

Binny's a different case. He's been out of form (maybe partly due to being found out and unable to adapt his game) for a while and used up his credit, plus the new rules don't really seem to suit him.

Teams need to evolve and new players have to be fed in. But you don't just chuck out 50 caps of experience without good reason, especially when that player has shown himself capable of developing his game as May has and Binny arguably hasn't.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Regarding credit is the bank vs form, I think it is just one of many considerations but credit should not be dismissed. Take Big Joe, arguably he is not in form as he was injured and it would be unfair to hold that against him. Besides some lapses in defence, he has met the challenge internationally and I can be reasonably confident he could continue to do so. Not enough to displace our established wingers but enough that he could be on the wing for England if ours go with the Lions or during smaller games for example. The likes of Thorley we don't yet know how he will perform internationally so that is a small point separating them.

Why is this important? Alex Goode is why. His club form was always pretty good yet he consistently struggled at international level. If anything he was in debt with the bank when it came to internationals. That counts for something. Club form is what gets you a look in, international form is what keeps you there and your "credit" is basically your accumulated proof of international form. Over time you can obviously burn through those savings if you stop performing (see Binny).

I'd also point to Ben Morgan. He was decent at club level but always seemed to step up at international. To this day I still don't understand why he fell so badly out of favour but there you go.

 

[Nudger]

I guess A few very good players like morgan fell by the wayside,because they didn't buy into eddies project?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I guess A few very good players like morgan fell by the wayside,because they didn't buy into eddies project?

Yeah, probably couldn't do a billion pull ups in a minute.

Guess we'll get the truth one day but unless he failed the no plonkers test why wouldn't you involve players who proved they could raise their game at the top level? I think Jones has had one of his blind spots where Binny's been concerned - better at running through brick walls, yes (and at one point we didn't have many carriers). But to my mind Morgan always had the sharper rugby brain.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Joe Cokanasiga injury latest: Winger is close to Bath Rugby return

Stuart Hooper provides an update on the injury status of his star back

www.somersetlive.co.uk

Interesting reading regarding Big Joe, it seems he injured his knee but because he continued training and playing with it, it exacerbated the problem and created new ones. Given the frequent and lengthy injuries players have suffered under Jones, it does call into question if he takes injury recovery seriously.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Could equally be because it was a world cup and no one wants to go home with a bang on the knee if they think it could be fine after a week or so - so tell the medics it's fine and try and grit through

Haskell claims, on his podcast, that Jones is big on recovery/how the players are feeling and altering training load based on that - but then equally that could be the above, no one wants to be doing less than everyone else so claim to be 100%



Reading that, weirdly it's what my cousin retired from - he used to play for Worcester, broke his leg -> came back too soon -> back injury via compensating -> had to retire in his early 20s

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

After Exeters last game I think the Simmonds brothers have really put themselves in contention for England selection. Jack Nowell also seems to be in incredible form and offers something very different on the wing to the likes of May.

 

[Reiser99]

Issue I see is that there is a view point (which I don't subscribe to) that Exeter are an excellent team, but many of their players are just good players in an excellent team and if you take them out of it they won't have nearly the same impact. It's why you've had the likes of Youngs/Cole around the England setup even though Leicester have been going backwards for a while. They are seen as excellent players regardless of the team their in. For some reason I feel EJ subscribes to this view, especially in regards to the Exeter forwards, which is why they haven't had a massive look in.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hepburn, Moon, LCD, Williams, Armand, Ewers, Simmonds, J.Hill, Slade, S.Hill and Nowell have all been in EJ EPS squads

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Issue I see is that there is a view point (which I don't subscribe to) that Exeter are an excellent team, but many of their players are just good players in an excellent team and if you take them out of it they won't have nearly the same impact. It's why you've had the likes of Youngs/Cole around the England setup even though Leicester have been going backwards for a while. They are seen as excellent players regardless of the team their in. For some reason I feel EJ subscribes to this view, especially in regards to the Exeter forwards, which is why they haven't had a massive look in.

Whilst I can understand that argument, eventually it hits the wall that a team that is premiership winners, finalists in Europe and been pretty dominant in many of their games cannot merely be full of decent players playing to a system well. Teams with many recognised very good players who also have good systems would beat such a team but that rarely happens with Exeter. The thing that makes me question this particular line of reasoning is this is what many people said about England for ages. You could look at a time period and say statistically over that period England were one of the best teams and yet people would still turn around and a 6 Nations XV would contain basically no Englishmen, even as the supposedly superior players are getting beaten even on an individual level by the supposedly inferior players.

Also I wouldn't say Cole and Youngs were the best examples as both of their forms dropped off a cliff at the same time as Tigers form did. Some of what the Simmonds brothers do is individual brilliance and not going through a team process. Farrell comes across far more as a 10 who looks good in a good process but without actually much to make him stand out as a 10 individually. I cannot think of many times I've seen Farrell as an individual do something brilliant that led to a big advantage for the team rather than simply going through the motions at 10 but with a pretty high degree of accuracy.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Hepburn, Moon, LCD, Williams, Armand, Ewers, Simmonds, J.Hill, Slade, S.Hill and Nowell have all been in EJ EPS squads

Kvesic, Devoto and Maunder have all also recieved caps under Jones while playing for Exeter. I don't really think any Exeter players can feel too aggrieved by EJ's selections. Practically every English player in the 1st choice side has gotten caps under EJ; and all bar Slade, Nowell and maybe LCD have failed to make any real impact with the chances they've been given.

That said, I definitely want to see Hill and Joe Simmonds get some game time in the upcoming tournament.

 

[Which Tyler]

You can't just say "Exeter are doing very well as a club - we should cap more Exeter players; you need to identify who.
IMO Exeter have been great at getting the absolute best out of good-but-not-brilliant players. Their track record with brilliant players is... a work in progress.

Hepburn, Moon & Williams simply aren't as good as their competition for England.
LCD is plenty involved, but George and Hartley simply have (had) better basics. You could argue that Dunn also has better basics, (but way less international pedigree)
I'm coming round to Jonny Hill since the restart - but (a bit like Ewels) I don't get the impression he'll manage to step up to international rugby well - but (less like Ewels) he's earned a shot at proving me wrong. He should certainly be in the conversation. I'm not sure he's earned a shot ahead of or top 4 locks before this Autumn though.
In the backrow - Exeter's players are hamstrung by the specific system that Exeter use. Baxter just sets them up differently to any other coach. I feel that if Simmonds had been playing flanker for the last 6 years, he'd have been capped earlier, and had a much better chance at staying in the team. As it is, he's in a position of real strength, and his attributes are better suited to a position he doesn't play.

Much has been made of Maunder - but he's never kicked on. He's reaching that point that Spencer was in about 5 years ago. He's losing too much development time by not being first choice - he's also not quite earning first choice where he is.
Joe Simmonds should (IMO) be England's 3rd choice FH - maybe 2nd if he takes to international rugby well - Eddie only takes 2 FHs, one of whom is now the captain. Behind that he likes brining in apprentices at FH. Unfortunately for him, 3 years ago, Smith was way ahead of him, whilst being 2 years younger.
Devoto should have been involved more - and may have been were it not for injuries
Slade is plenty involved - but plays in a position of strength for England (and, as has been said before - had he spent the last 6 years playing in his more natural position, he'd have 50+ caps and be automatic starter by now)
Nowell is plenty involved - but plays in a position of strength for England (and, as has been said before - his natural attributes probably suit a different position better, and he IS hamstrung by his pace on the wing; and however much good he does, picking him means dropping at least one of May, Watson or Daly, all of whom are or have been world-class on the wing).


As ever - it's not just "who deserves to be picked" but also "who should be dropped to make room"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Really I think the only Exeter players who can feel hard done by are Armand and Ewers - when they were in top top form in the prem our backrow was pretty poor internationally but they didn't get a look in.
Even then, though, Ewers isn't what EJ looks for in a flanker.


Simmonds Jr should 100% be in the EPS now, though - far better than Smith and Umaga.
Simmonds Sr is in great form but it's a case of who do you drop - I think it'll come down to him vs Earl for the utility backrower slot and I wouldn't want to have to make that decision, both playing out of their skin atm.
Hill deserves a look in and will almost definitely get one considering Kruis is no longer available

Aren't there only a limited number of changes that can he made to an EPS each time it's named?
Or have they done away with that rule now?