England Rugby 2019/20 Thread

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've been onboard the Willis hype train for a while, but he's surely now made an unanswerable case to be included in some match day 23s. If he takes to international rugby well Jones has some real problems.

In a couple of years I could see a back row of Willis, Underhill and Dombrandt. That would be incredibly hard on Curry who's a great all round player but each of those brings real USPs - Willis on the floor, the ferocity of Underhill's tackling while Dombrandt is an out and out 8 who brings power and smart running lines. That would be athletic enough and very powerful without resorting to big blokes for the sake of it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ultimately I think whichever back row we go for, some very deserving players will be losing out. Ideally I'd hope we can cycle our back row over time so in the event of an injury we have backups who have experience. I think with the talent we have coming through, that would be a realistic possibility.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The form 8 is Simmonds. Although I think Jones will pick someone out of position again because he just does.

After quite a few years of average joes we've got loads of great options. It's all about balance to make them fit into 4 positions. I mean Underhill and Curry and fantastic but Willis' form means he starts or gets a bench spot but I can't work the combos in my head.

The only thing I am sure on is that Billy doesn't deserve to play. Give him some time off and let him find his mojo.

 

[NickBD]

Billy hasn't been great for a few years now, he was quite ordinary at the last World Cup too. That said iv not watched every Sarries game this year so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Reiser99]

What I want to know is if Youngs and Heinz were picked because they were the only options, as apart from Care there is literally no one else who could reasonably be called up, or if EJ actually still intends to continue with not capping anyone under 30.
Gloucester: Heinz (In squad)
Quins: Care (Ship has sailed)
Tigers: Youngs (In Squad)
Irish: No one
Saints: Mitchell (In squad)
Sharks: No one (and they all have covid)
Saracens: Spencer (with Bath)
Worcester: No one

It was a major issue before the WC and it's only getting worse. Outside of Youngs and Care (who is unlikely to play for England again) the next most capped player is Heinz on 13 and he's going to be 36 at the next WC. If you take those three away based on form/age the next most experienced scrum half is Spencer on 3 caps.

Youngs: 99
Care: 84
Heinz: 13
Spencer: 3
Robson: 2
Maunder: 1
Mitchell: 0
Randall: 0
Vellacott: 0

I'm in no way questioning the ability because there are some fantastic players coming through and Spencer and Robson are the form 9's, but international experience is another thing and if Youngs and Heinz aren't at the next WC then we will be sorely lacking for experience at 9. With Covid it's a bit up in the air, but I would say from now until the 2023 WC you are looking 20-30 games max (quite possibly less than 20), which means our most experienced SH would probably have less than 30 caps. That's worrying and if EJ persists with Youngs and Heinz that number is only going to drop.

I know most of you will agree, but can someone please explain this madness?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

What I want to know is if Youngs and Heinz were picked because they were the only options, as apart from Care there is literally no one else who could reasonably be called up, or if EJ actually still intends to continue with not capping anyone under 30.
Gloucester: Heinz (In squad)
Quins: Care (Ship has sailed)
Tigers: Youngs (In Squad)
Irish: No one
Saints: Mitchell (In squad)
Sharks: No one (and they all have covid)
Saracens: Spencer (with Bath)
Worcester: No one

It was a major issue before the WC and it's only getting worse. Outside of Youngs and Care (who is unlikely to play for England again) the next most capped player is Heinz on 13 and he's going to be 36 at the next WC. If you take those three away based on form/age the next most experienced scrum half is Spencer on 3 caps.

Youngs: 99
Care: 84
Heinz: 13
Spencer: 3
Robson: 2
Maunder: 1
Mitchell: 0
Randall: 0
Vellacott: 0

I'm in no way questioning the ability because there are some fantastic players coming through and Spencer and Robson are the form 9's, but international experience is another thing and if Youngs and Heinz aren't at the next WC then we will be sorely lacking for experience at 9. With Covid it's a bit up in the air, but I would say from now until the 2023 WC you are looking 20-30 games max (quite possibly less than 20), which means our most experienced SH would probably have less than 30 caps. That's worrying and if EJ persists with Youngs and Heinz that number is only going to drop.

I know most of you will agree, but can someone please explain this madness?

 

[Scotty]

I've been onboard the Willis hype train for a while, but he's surely now made an unanswerable case to be included in some match day 23s. If he takes to international rugby well Jones has some real problems.

In a couple of years I could see a back row of Willis, Underhill and Dombrandt. That would be incredibly hard on Curry who's a great all round player but each of those brings real USPs - Willis on the floor, the ferocity of Underhill's tackling while Dombrandt is an out and out 8 who brings power and smart running lines. That would be athletic enough and very powerful without resorting to big blokes for the sake of it.

I agree but also think Willis Curry Dombrant, Underhill. That would ba a nightmRe to play against and he plays 6 and like that with young at Wasps with 2 7s. Then underhill coming on leaving one of them but adding that physicality and powerful tackling. Could even be underhill that misses out for earl to add pace into the bacn line. Who knows

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anyone know when the next training squad is announced?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I agree but also think Willis Curry Dombrant, Underhill. That would ba a nightmRe to play against and he plays 6 and like that with young at Wasps with 2 7s. Then underhill coming on leaving one of them but adding that physicality and powerful tackling. Could even be underhill that misses out for earl to add pace into the bacn line. Who knows

While I haven't watched too much Bristol, Earl was anonymous in the semi final. Seemed like a different player to the one I watched while at sarries.

But granted it was just one game. We do need more options at 8 though.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

While I haven't watched too much Bristol, Earl was anonymous in the semi final. Seemed like a different player to the one I watched while at sarries.

But granted it was just one game. We do need more options at 8 though.

I was just about to say exactly that on Earl. Big fan, but he fluffed his lines on the bigger stage. I think he's generally been playing fairly well though.

I think 8 could be a real position of strength if Jones can get past his Binny fixation.

Dombrandt's earned his shot, should totally be a starter. Earl and Simmonds are great up the tempo merchants off the bench and few would really fancy facing 25 minutes of a wound up Binny. I think the Willis boys can both play there too. Precisely no need to see Curry in that shirt again. Heck, even Hughes is playing OK.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

but he fluffed his lines on the bigger stage.

Not exactly the biggest stage he's ever been on considering the numerous euro and prem finals at Sarries,
I can forgive him a bad game in a beaten pack considering how good he's been at both Sarries and Bristol the rest of this season.

For me he's on the bench, though (well, him or Simmonds - as you said)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not exactly the biggest stage he's ever been on considering the numerous euro and prem finals at Sarries,
I can forgive him a bad game in a beaten pack considering how good he's been at both Sarries and Bristol the rest of this season.

For me he's on the bench, though (well, him or Simmonds - as you said)

Agreed. I just meant on a bigger stage than regulation league matches.

Any thoughts on Jones view of the talent pool?

Eddie Jones feels pool of England prospects has not grown since 2015 | England rugby union team | The Guardian

The England coach feels emergence of young talent in Premiership has been consistent but hardly exceptional since he arrived

www.google.com

 

[BPM]

I've been onboard the Willis hype train for a while, but he's surely now made an unanswerable case to be included in some match day 23s. If he takes to international rugby well Jones has some real problems.

In a couple of years I could see a back row of Willis, Underhill and Dombrandt. That would be incredibly hard on Curry who's a great all round player but each of those brings real USPs - Willis on the floor, the ferocity of Underhill's tackling while Dombrandt is an out and out 8 who brings power and smart running lines. That would be athletic enough and very powerful without resorting to big blokes for the sake of it.

Agreed re. Willis. Aside from the ridiculous work at the breakdown, he offers plenty as a carrier and in defence.

As much as I rate Underhill, there's no way Curry doesn't occupy one of the flanks for me.

Underhill's carrying a link play has improved, but his all round game isn't at the same level as Curry's and it's not as though Curry lacks ferocity.

I love Dombrandt- he's among my favourite players, but he hasn't quite 'earned his shot' IMO. He has the talent, but he still has a lot to learn and isn't as consistently influential as I think he'd need to be to start for England yet.

 

[BPM]

Not exactly the biggest stage he's ever been on considering the numerous euro and prem finals at Sarries,
I can forgive him a bad game in a beaten pack considering how good he's been at both Sarries and Bristol the rest of this season.

For me he's on the bench, though (well, him or Simmonds - as you said)

Agreed on Earl. I don't think he had a bad game as such. He just wasn't as noticeably effective as he usually is.

To say he 'fluffed his lines' is very harsh.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

OK on Earl, let's just say he was totally outshone by a rival for an Eng back row berth. I like him, but genuinely checked before half time to see if he was still on the pitch.

There's more at stake in a semi than a regular game. A bit more pressure. Willis definitely responded. I think Earl just had a bad day at the office in a beaten pack, no more than that. Everyone has them but it's really sub optimal in a bigger game when one of your rivals is shining.

Ref Dombrandt there are very few who are oven ready for the international game. But everything about him screams long term international - he's got the physical attributes, his work rate's decent but above all he clearly has a rugby brain. It would be bizarre not to give him a proper shot soon.

 

[Scotty]

OK on Earl, let's just say he was totally outshone by a rival for an Eng back row berth. I like him, but genuinely checked before half time to see if he was still on the pitch.

There's more at stake in a semi than a regular game. A bit more pressure. Willis definitely responded. I think Earl just had a bad day at the office in a beaten pack, no more than that. Everyone has them but it's really sub optimal in a bigger game when one of your rivals is shining.

Ref Dombrandt there are very few who are oven ready for the international game. But everything about him screams long term international - he's got the physical attributes, his work rate's decent but above all he clearly has a rugby brain. It would be bizarre not to give him a proper shot soon.

Exactly what i think with Dombrandt. i dont think anyone here thinks he should replace billy this second and put 100% faith because he is 100% ready. He needs to be around the set up and given a shot to grow. He seems to have a high ceiling i think in the same way i wouldnt complain seeing Big joe in the squad. Alot of natural talent and ability to be moulded over the next couple of year to a class internation.

Willis seems to be there now though. I cant see him not stepping up to the challenge.

 

[BPM]

OK - but if we're talking about 'earning a shot', Willis has shown what that's all about.

Dombrandt undoubtedly has the natural talent and the 'rugby brain' to be a top class international, but even as a huge fan, I don't think he has shone in the same way as someone like Willis or has even been as consistently good as Ted Hill. To my mind, they've 'earned' their shots. Dombrandt should be given a chance because the potential reward hugely outweighs the risk, whether he's 'earned' that to the same degree is definitely up for debate IMO.

Old Hooker is harshly discounting Earl on one anonymous outing. I can promise you that Dombrandt has had quite a few more of those than Earl has. There was one stage earlier in the season where he was rightly on the bench because Chisholm was outplaying him.

I don't need to be convinced on the merits of picking him, but I would debate whether he has truly earned it.

 

[Which Tyler]

The trouble is, there are a dozen backrowers who've "earned a shot", and any match-day squad an only fit 4 of them.

We've all got our favourites within that dozen; but that favouritism doesn't mean that we know more than Eddie and his team.
So long as there are more backrowers than locks, then it would be practically impossible to criticise the seletcion as being "wrong"

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So long as there are more backrowers than locks, then it would be practically impossible to criticise the seletcion as being "wrong"

Hope you're ready for:
6. Lawes
7. Nowell
8. Curry

 

[Which Tyler]

I am not ready for that.
I'll have to wear my steel toecap boots before reading the announcement, just to be on the safe side