England Post-WC discussion

[TRF_Olyy]

Original 23 had a lot more Tigers players in it (pretty much 20 out of 23)

As long as the other 3 were the 3 Sale players then you get my vote.

 

[Mattybuck]

I'd always Fancied an Eastmond/Tuilagi centre partnership prior to JJ staking his claim.

Nice mixture of pace, craft and power.

Obviously Barritt/Burgess is better

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

As long as the other 3 were the 3 Sale players then you get my vote.

I was thinking Beaumont, Taylor and Cips.

 

[chippieolamus]

I'd always Fancied an Eastmond/Tuilagi centre partnership prior to JJ staking his claim.

Nice mixture of pace, craft and power.

Obviously Barritt/Burgess is better

That was tried vs New Zealand in the summer but defensively it was terrible.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That was tried vs New Zealand in the summer but defensively it was terrible.

Wasn't that bad TBH.

Was never given a chance to grow.

 

[Peat]

Wasn't that bad TBH.

Was never given a chance to grow.

It had a very terrible forty minutes. One of the more exasperating things about Lancaster are all the experiments jettisoned the moment something went wrong. Either he believes in the idea, and is willing to see if it's more than a one-off, or he doesn't, and why did he do it in the first place?

Eastmond-Tuilagi is still the most potent attacking centre combination we have imo, with all due respect to Joseph's attacking prowess. I don't think I ever felt comfortable with its defensive dimensions, but in attack, it's pretty swag.

 

[j'nuh]

That was tried vs New Zealand in the summer but defensively it was terrible.

Always the way with England centres. They are impressive in one or two skills, mediocre in most of the rest, except for one or two skills that limit them tremendously.
Eastmond: Top distributor, lacks physicality
Burrell: Decent carrier, can be prone to defensive positioning blunders
Barritt: Amongst the top defensive centres in the world, no attacking game to speak of
Twelvetrees: Full skill set, erratic
Tuilagi: Physical and the best carrier, a bit of a "heads down" player
Joseph: Most well-rounded player of the lot, although is on the less physical side
Allen: Had the skills but injuries stopped us from ever seeing it for England, also on the less physical side

Then when you start talking viable partnerships, other issues creep in. Tuilagi-Joseph seems viable, but I'm not sure either of them can lead a blitz defence, and both are 13s. Tuilagi would have to move to 12 and learn to blitz well, but I think it would be a waste to move him to 12 where there are much fewer gaps to exploit. Slade plays between 10 and 13 mostly, I'm not sure what he would be like leading the blitz at 12, but has a decent complementing skill set to Tuilagi or Joseph if he was given the chance to learn. Hill is the only other option at the minute really.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Of course there is also Elliot Daly, our utility back.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Inclined to agree that 36 has the full set, so why isn't he nailed on?

Not got it between the ears? Possibly and very little you can do about that.

I'm more inclined to think he's just never been trusted because he tries things and sometimes that will go wrong. He's not a percentages player and now he probably tries a big too hard to make things happen.

He didn't make his debut until he was 24. Hard to imagine either of tomorrow's finalists waiting so long to blood someone they thought had the lot.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Twelvetrees has had more than enough opportunities to prove his worth, and hasn't.
It'll take a lot to convince me he should be in an England shirt again.

 

[Mattybuck]

I think one run out with a weakened team whilst playing away to the worlds best team, does not in my book constitute a fair chance.

As stated SL picked them then bottled it.

Eastmond is not big but physical! And physicality is not everything.

Jamie Roberts would hate to defend against him!

Update

Sam Burgess named in Bath's 41 man European squad.

Sky seem to think it's confirmed that he is now stated...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Twelvetrees has had more than enough opportunities to prove his worth, and hasn't.
It'll take a lot to convince me he should be in an England shirt again.

Get where you're coming from, but he and Burrell played throughout last year's 6N (outside Farrell) and while they may not have set the world on fire I think they did OK, almost resembling something like a centre combination. That neither then made the RWC squad tells you all you need to know about the management.

Slade could be the short term answer at 12 provided the Chiefs give him a few games there. But he feels like our long term 10 to me.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

If slade does end up a 10, we genuinely don't have many 12a to pick from in England right now.

Who really are the choices playing at the moment:

Barritt
Burrell
Hill
Eastmond
Mills
Matt smith
Harry Sloan (we won't see much of him when Roberts arrives)

Have I missed any 12s starting who are English?

That's a **** poor bunch.

And people say it tuilagi is a 13 who doesn't have the skills of a 12.

 

[Peat]

Twelvetrees has had more than enough opportunities to prove his worth, and hasn't.
It'll take a lot to convince me he should be in an England shirt again.

To be somewhat pedantic, he has proved his worth.

He's also proven his lack of worth too though. That's the issue. He can do it, but consistency is an issue. So how are horrifyingly poorly timed gaffes. His best probably is currently our best though.

I'm still not sure quite where I stand. I probably tilt towards "Thanks and goodbye" but if a new coach decided to back him to the hilt as the man for their way, I'd be interested. He could be more for another coach. The constant rotation at centre still stands as one of the most obvious gaffes of the hopefully previous regime.

 

[Mattybuck]

Not sure Slade is going to be the long term 10. There are 3 decent 10's Ford/Cips/Faz who is already behind in experience at both club and country.

He will have to start ripping up trees at 10 for Exe to be considered.

I see him more as a ball playing 12.

12T possesses all facets that should make a brilliant 12, however although having some reasonable games for England, he has not done anywhere near enough despite many many chances.

Compare that to what Eastmond has been given in game time.

 

[j'nuh]

What does everyone think we should do about Tuilagi/Joseph? On balance, I think Tuilagi-Joseph would be my favourite centre partnership, but assuming it's Tuilagi or Joseph at 13, I think that I would have Tuilagi. I think we miss his carrying in the backline.

To be somewhat pedantic, he has proved his worth.

He's also proven his lack of worth too though. That's the issue. He can do it, but consistency is an issue. So how are horrifyingly poorly timed gaffes. His best probably is currently our best though.

I'm still not sure quite where I stand. I probably tilt towards "Thanks and goodbye" but if a new coach decided to back him to the hilt as the man for their way, I'd be interested. He could be more for another coach. The constant rotation at centre still stands as one of the most obvious gaffes of the hopefully previous regime.

For me, he would need to prove his worth over a long period of time to show that he's not as flaky now. But IIRC, he's already given a loose pass to no one for Gloucester this season. But if he were to have a season like his first for Gloucester, no doubt I'd have him in.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What does everyone think we should do about Tuilagi/Joseph? On balance, I think Tuilagi-Joseph would be my favourite centre partnership, but assuming it's Tuilagi or Joseph at 13, I think that I would have Tuilagi. I think we miss his carrying in the backline.


For me, he would need to prove his worth over a long period of time to show that he's not as flaky now. But IIRC, he's already given a loose pass to no one for Gloucester this season. But if he were to have a season like his first for Gloucester, no doubt I'd have him in.

With tuilagi we don't need him, he hair isn't skilled enough to fit into the 12 role.

We have relied on him to do the carrying as we have had pathetic forwards. JJ is miles ahead in every area as a rugby player.

If we had a decent set of centres to choose from like most counties then tuilagi wouldn't really be looked at since he hasn't shown any signs of improvement ( although that's really the coaches fault not his).

 

[Mattybuck]

I don't think big lumps in the centre are the be all and end all.

First choice for this 6N would be Kyle/JJ with Manu on the bench. Just see how that goes using Manu as an impact sub for JJ, and maybe a look to see how he can do at 12.

I think Manu's game is too limited for 12 but his is a dangerous player who we need involved.

My 10's would be Ford and Cips, Ford to start but Cips to get fair game time, such as start vs Italy/Scot. Maybe give Slade a go off the bench in those games.

Farrell for me is well down the pecking order.

Wings, I'd have May and Roko, giving us a strong high ball kick chance. May has serious wheels and Roko has a very impressive all round game.

Watson to the bench to cover back 3, and in particular to come of for Brown to get game time and rest Brown.

Ford

Eastmond

JJ

May

Roko

Brown

Bench
Tuilagi
Cips
Watson

It has weaknesses but I'd give that set up a good look, and would certainly provide food for defensive thought for the opposition.

 

[Peat]

I don't think big lumps in the centre are the be all and end all.

Funny how everyone else seems to have them though.

Also, wait, did you just propose a backs sub bench with no scrum-half?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Anyone know when Earle is supposed to start playing for Sarries? Or why he isn't already?