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that we are finally going to play a fetcher at 7.

If that happens then it means we've got a new coach - I can't see one picking Wood.
Wood only works(/worked) because him and Robshaw combined just about made a complete flanker - bring in an openside then you don't need someone with the weaknesses at 6 that he has (that Peat has mentioned above).
 
Launch plays as a TH lock because our current coaches don't really value heavyweight forwards - so we see three LH locks in the 23 - Joe is the closest of the three to a TH lock.

He can act as one if the starting TH lock goes off, but I certainly don't recognise him as one.
 
my pack for the Scotland game

1. Vunipola
2. George/Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Slater/Kitchener
6. Robshaw/Itoje (depending how brave you feel)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola/Morgan

16. George/Hartley
17. Marler/Corbs ? (Really undecided here)
18. Brookes
19. Attwood
20. Ewers

I feel that team has a good mix of everything only thing I'd be worried about is the line out calling

By the way I feel Robshaw should 100% stay but only at number 6 .

I'd send Wood and Haskell on their way . We have too many good 6s to keep persisting with these penalty giving buffoons anymore
 
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my pack for the Scotland game

1. Vunipola
2. George/Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Slater/Kitchener
6. Robshaw/Itoje (depending how brave you feel)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola/Morgan

16. George/Hartley
17. Marler/Corbs ? (Really undecided here)
18. Brookes
19. Attwood
20. Ewers

I feel that team has a good mix of everything only thing I'd be worried about is the line out calling

By the way I feel Robshaw should 100% stay but only at number 6 .

I'd send Wood and Haskell on their way . We have too many good 6s to keep persisting with these penalty giving buffoons anymore

I wouldn't be surprised if a new coach comes in, we'll see Armitage playing in the opening 6N game.

I don't go with the 6 needing to be a full time line out jumper, I think the two locks should do all the catches with the odd mix up here and there. I know it makes the lineouts harder to read, but with a good hooker and good calls it won't make a difference.

I'd like to see a hard working big ball carriers at 6 and 8 and fetcher at 7.

Ewers / Burgess
Armitage / Kvesic
Vunipola / Morgan

Also, would also like to see Kitchener thrown into the mix at lock as he's athletic.

With more ball carriers in the pack, it relies less on having massive centres. Anyways, with a good back row there is a better chance of quick ball and nimble backs will be able to exploit the space.
 
If that happens then it means we've got a new coach - I can't see one picking Wood.
Wood only works(/worked) because him and Robshaw combined just about made a complete flanker - bring in an openside then you don't need someone with the weaknesses at 6 that he has (that Peat has mentioned above).

They didn't though. They always did the same things - work like mad, be adequate at most tasks. They worked when both were on good form and we played a game plan based more or less entirely on work and pressure. Now, Robshaw and Croft, they were a complimentary pairing, but Robshaw and Wood? I don't believe so at least.


Anyway, this was in the Times.

Premiership clubs are demanding a greater role in the running of the England team and who coaches them.
In the aftermath of England's calamitous World Cup failure, top clubs have told the Rugby Football Union that they must be given more say over the future of Stuart Lancaster, the head coach, and identifying who will succeed him if he is sacked.
The Premiership provides the players to the England team and the clubs therefore believe that they are owed a role in the way the next England set-up is designed.
There is also a feeling among some clubs that collectively there is more rugby union expertise in the Premiership than the RFU, whose chief executive, Ian Ritchie, is not from a rugby background, and that the English game's governing body would be negligent not to call upon it.
"We should have more of an input as to how they use our assets," Tony Rowe, the chairman of Exeter Chiefs, said.
Bruce Craig, the chairman of Bath, added: "We should have a major input into how it should be structured and who the head coach should be."
The clubs have been pushing for a say in the review set up by Ritchie into England's elimination at the pool stage. "We are talking to them about it and they are accepting that we should have a voice," Craig said.
The Times understands that the RFU is in the process of formalising a method for the clubs to give their input to the review that is being conducted into England's World Cup campaign, though it remains unclear whether they will be given any voice in any appointments that are made.
The Aviva Premiership club season starts this evening, with Harlequins playing Wasps at The Twickenham
Stoop, and the clubs are resigned to the fact that England's failure in the World Cup is a huge opportunity missed. Had England been successful, the clubs would have been expecting extra numbers coming through the turnstiles. They no longer expect the World Cup to have much impact on their crowds.
That is one reason why they want a greater say in the England team structure. Simon Cohen, the chief executive of Leicester Tigers, said: "If they want this to be a successful process, they should talk to the clubs. There is a huge amount of expertise in the Premiership and it'd be nice to think that they would take advantage of that."
Rowe said: "We could be asked at least to attend a meeting. Each club has invested a lot of money in those players that go to play for England, but we have no input as to how they are coached.
"Perhaps they should consider taking advice. I can guarantee that every single coach in the Premiership would say the same: they know their players, they know how their assets should best be used. The Premiership coaches have taken their boys to a very high level; why is their input not sought?"
Stephen Vaughan, the managing director of Gloucester, said: "We are stakeholders in the England team and so the World Cup is important to us. And we have a multitude of expertise."
Vaughan mentioned David Humphreys, the director of rugby at Gloucester, and Dean Richards and Dean Ryan, the director of rugby at Newcastle Falcons and Worcester Warriors respectively, as experts whose opinions should be sought. "It would be useful to share their thoughts," he said. "Jim Mallinder [director of rugby at Northampton Saints] would be wonderful to speak to: how have you made Northampton a success? Or Exeter: how have you risen the way you have?"
Craig said: "We've got 12 very successful clubs, we know who are the good coaches, we know what should be done. We have the expertise."
Traditionally, the clubs have made their opinions heard within the RFU because they have four spots on the Professional Game Board (PGB). However, the PGB does not carry much influence and, in the review into England's World Cup failure, it is not going to be consulted.
"There are people on the PGB with significant rugby knowledge," Craig said. He occupies one of the PRL's positions on the PGB. "The PGB needs to be given more teeth."
Some clubs believe that they might yet experience a positive impact from the World Cup. Both Sandy Park, Exeter's home ground, and Kingsholm, Gloucester, hosted World Cup games and were a spectacular success. There may be new fans who experienced rugby for the first time at those venues and may decide to come back for more.
"We will not be getting the Jonny Wilkinson moment," Vaughan said. "Our plan for the World Cup was to engage with more people and we will carry on regardless, but there is no doubt that not having the hosts in the tournament is going to have an impact."
 
I think you have to look at who are the best players in their specific position and then look at those players and see which ones have the X factor and potential to be world class.

So for example with pack I'd say

1 best scrummager/ ball carrying in the tight
2 best line out/ scrummager
3 best scrummager/ tight ball carrying
4 best solid jump/ best Rucker
5 best line out jumper/ ball carrier in the wide
6 best tackler/ Rucker
7 best breakdown/ support player
8 ball carrier / tackler/ Rucker/ support player


If we pick on these and stop focusing on the wrong things we'd be in a much better place.

Case in point is marler and mako, picked for their loose work and the. We tried to make them good scrummagers but what we needed is solid scrummagers who can do a bit of tight ball carrying.
 
The issue wasn't selection outside maybe the midfield.

I disagree

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But Kitchener is the lineout caller for Tigers and was this season whether Parling was there or not. Plus he's great around the pitch and a big lad.

For me ill be watching Kitchener and Slater very closely this season as I think Launchbury, Kitchener and Slater are the answer in the engine room.

Attwood hasn't brought the real physicality I hopped he would but maybe one last chance.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you have to look at who are the best players in their specific position and then look at those players and see which ones have the X factor and potential to be world class.

So for example with pack I'd say

1 best scrummager/ ball carrying in the tight
2 best line out/ scrummager
3 best scrummager/ tight ball carrying
4 best solid jump/ best Rucker
5 best line out jumper/ ball carrier in the wide
6 best tackler/ Rucker
7 best breakdown/ support player
8 ball carrier / tackler/ Rucker/ support player


If we pick on these and stop focusing on the wrong things we'd be in a much better place.

Case in point is marler and mako, picked for their loose work and the. We tried to make them good scrummagers but what we needed is solid scrummagers who can do a bit of tight ball carrying.

I agree with what you say..but I think the lock combo (Parling and Lawes) has a huge effect on the scrum and how the front row goes. Two lightweight guys don't support the props.

They used to say Simon Shaw was like having two guys pushing in the scrum it was so noticeable. We might not have a player like him...but we do have potential.

Launchbury is quality. Kitchener as I have just mentioned is a cracking player and 19+ stone. Slater (though currently suffering with that knee) is another bruinsing heavyweight lock who needs to be looked at when he gets fit. Attwood makes a big difference when he's in the scrum....etc

As people keep aluding to on here...we DO have the players its getting the right selection, balance and tactics.

For me Lancaster plain and simply got them wrong!
 
They didn't though. They always did the same things - work like mad, be adequate at most tasks. They worked when both were on good form and we played a game plan based more or less entirely on work and pressure. Now, Robshaw and Croft, they were a complimentary pairing, but Robshaw and Wood? I don't believe so at least.


Anyway, this was in the Times.

Premiership clubs are demanding a greater role in the running of the England team and who coaches them.
In the aftermath of England’s calamitous World Cup failure, top clubs have told the Rugby Football Union that they must be given more say over the future of Stuart Lancaster, the head coach, and identifying who will succeed him if he is sacked.
The Premiership provides the players to the England team and the clubs therefore believe that they are owed a role in the way the next England set-up is designed.
There is also a feeling among some clubs that collectively there is more rugby union expertise in the Premiership than the RFU, whose chief executive, Ian Ritchie, is not from a rugby background, and that the English game’s governing body would be negligent not to call upon it.
“We should have more of an input as to how they use our assets,†Tony Rowe, the chairman of Exeter Chiefs, said.
Bruce Craig, the chairman of Bath, added: “We should have a major input into how it should be structured and who the head coach should be.â€
The clubs have been pushing for a say in the review set up by Ritchie into England’s elimination at the pool stage. “We are talking to them about it and they are accepting that we should have a voice,†Craig said.
The Times understands that the RFU is in the process of formalising a method for the clubs to give their input to the review that is being conducted into England’s World Cup campaign, though it remains unclear whether they will be given any voice in any appointments that are made.
The Aviva Premiership club season starts this evening, with Harlequins playing Wasps at The Twickenham
Stoop, and the clubs are resigned to the fact that England’s failure in the World Cup is a huge opportunity missed. Had England been successful, the clubs would have been expecting extra numbers coming through the turnstiles. They no longer expect the World Cup to have much impact on their crowds.
That is one reason why they want a greater say in the England team structure. Simon Cohen, the chief executive of Leicester Tigers, said: “If they want this to be a successful process, they should talk to the clubs. There is a huge amount of expertise in the Premiership and it’d be nice to think that they would take advantage of that.â€
Rowe said: “We could be asked at least to attend a meeting. Each club has invested a lot of money in those players that go to play for England, but we have no input as to how they are coached.
“Perhaps they should consider taking advice. I can guarantee that every single coach in the Premiership would say the same: they know their players, they know how their assets should best be used. The Premiership coaches have taken their boys to a very high level; why is their input not sought?â€
Stephen Vaughan, the managing director of Gloucester, said: “We are stakeholders in the England team and so the World Cup is important to us. And we have a multitude of expertise.â€
Vaughan mentioned David Humphreys, the director of rugby at Gloucester, and Dean Richards and Dean Ryan, the director of rugby at Newcastle Falcons and Worcester Warriors respectively, as experts whose opinions should be sought. “It would be useful to share their thoughts,†he said. “Jim Mallinder [director of rugby at Northampton Saints] would be wonderful to speak to: how have you made Northampton a success? Or Exeter: how have you risen the way you have?â€
Craig said: “We’ve got 12 very successful clubs, we know who are the good coaches, we know what should be done. We have the expertise.â€
Traditionally, the clubs have made their opinions heard within the RFU because they have four spots on the Professional Game Board (PGB). However, the PGB does not carry much influence and, in the review into England’s World Cup failure, it is not going to be consulted.
“There are people on the PGB with significant rugby knowledge,†Craig said. He occupies one of the PRL’s positions on the PGB. “The PGB needs to be given more teeth.â€
Some clubs believe that they might yet experience a positive impact from the World Cup. Both Sandy Park, Exeter’s home ground, and Kingsholm, Gloucester, hosted World Cup games and were a spectacular success. There may be new fans who experienced rugby for the first time at those venues and may decide to come back for more.
“We will not be getting the Jonny Wilkinson moment,†Vaughan said. “Our plan for the World Cup was to engage with more people and we will carry on regardless, but there is no doubt that not having the hosts in the tournament is going to have an impact.â€

Only really skimmed this so not responding in full, but my feeling is this is about the owners not the coaches. The idea of Ford, Cockerill, Mallinder etc. having a role to play in the England setup is interesting and worth discussing. The idea of Craig and Wray sticking their fingers in fills me with dread to be honest.
 
I disagree

- - - Updated - - -

But Kitchener is the lineout caller for Tigers and was this season whether Parling was there or not. Plus he's great around the pitch and a big lad.

For me ill be watching Kitchener and Slater very closely this season as I think Launchbury, Kitchener and Slater are the answer in the engine room.

Attwood hasn't brought the real physicality I hopped he would but maybe one last chance.

- - - Updated - - -



I agree with what you say..but I think the lock combo (Parling and Lawes) has a huge effect on the scrum and how the front row goes. Two lightweight guys don't support the props.

They used to say Simon Shaw was like having two guys pushing in the scrum it was so noticeable. We might not have a player like him...but we do have potential.

Launchbury is quality. Kitchener as I have just mentioned is a cracking player and 19+ stone. Slater (though currently suffering with that knee) is another bruinsing heavyweight lock who needs to be looked at when he gets fit. Attwood makes a big difference when he's in the scrum....etc

As people keep aluding to on here...we DO have the players its getting the right selection, balance and tactics.

For me Lancaster plain and simply got them wrong!

I fully agree, following my principles above we should have too scrummagers in the front row and a TH lock who is a lump.

As for filling out that team I couldn't do it myself, I can't think of the best scrummagers etc but locks I'd look at

Lauchberry & kitchner for the 6 nations.

Anyone want to have a go following my rules to create the best pack?
 
Only really skimmed this so not responding in full, but my feeling is this is about the owners not the coaches. The idea of Ford, Cockerill, Mallinder etc. having a role to play in the England setup is interesting and worth discussing. The idea of Craig and Wray sticking their fingers in fills me with dread to be honest.

I agree.

I've talked to Peat about it a couple of times - I've thought for a while now that the clubs were going to become very, very aggressive in their efforts to wrest control from the RFU post RWC. In fact I think it might get extremely ugly at some point.
 
I agree.

I've talked to Peat about it a couple of times - I've thought for a while now that the clubs were going to become very, very aggressive in their efforts to wrest control from the RFU post RWC. In fact I think it might get extremely ugly at some point.

Cannot argue with that!

I do not like the owners ambitions to take the AP global for their financial benefit, but you cannot doubt that they have had more success individually in business than the collective management of the RFU!!

Their opinions must carry some weight but, as someone else posted, so should their coaches!!

It's all well and good for said coaches to be consulted by the English coach but, if they do not respect him, there will not be a very good relationship!
 
The business side of the RFU is very strong AFAIK, so I'm not sure the individual owners really trump the RFU there.

In fact, given that the majority of clubs are loss making businesses, I think the RFU has a fairly clear foot up on them.
 
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Whilst it sounds interesting, I still think that the sooner Bruce Craig is out of rugby the better.
 
They didn't though. They always did the same things - work like mad, be adequate at most tasks. They worked when both were on good form and we played a game plan based more or less entirely on work and pressure. Now, Robshaw and Croft, they were a complimentary pairing, but Robshaw and Wood? I don't believe so at least.


Anyway, this was in the Times.

Premiership clubs are demanding a greater role in the running of the England team and who coaches them.
In the aftermath of England’s calamitous World Cup failure, top clubs have told the Rugby Football Union that they must be given more say over the future of Stuart Lancaster, the head coach, and identifying who will succeed him if he is sacked.
The Premiership provides the players to the England team and the clubs therefore believe that they are owed a role in the way the next England set-up is designed.
There is also a feeling among some clubs that collectively there is more rugby union expertise in the Premiership than the RFU, whose chief executive, Ian Ritchie, is not from a rugby background, and that the English game’s governing body would be negligent not to call upon it.
“We should have more of an input as to how they use our assets,†Tony Rowe, the chairman of Exeter Chiefs, said.
Bruce Craig, the chairman of Bath, added: “We should have a major input into how it should be structured and who the head coach should be.â€
The clubs have been pushing for a say in the review set up by Ritchie into England’s elimination at the pool stage. “We are talking to them about it and they are accepting that we should have a voice,†Craig said.
The Times understands that the RFU is in the process of formalising a method for the clubs to give their input to the review that is being conducted into England’s World Cup campaign, though it remains unclear whether they will be given any voice in any appointments that are made.
The Aviva Premiership club season starts this evening, with Harlequins playing Wasps at The Twickenham
Stoop, and the clubs are resigned to the fact that England’s failure in the World Cup is a huge opportunity missed. Had England been successful, the clubs would have been expecting extra numbers coming through the turnstiles. They no longer expect the World Cup to have much impact on their crowds.
That is one reason why they want a greater say in the England team structure. Simon Cohen, the chief executive of Leicester Tigers, said: “If they want this to be a successful process, they should talk to the clubs. There is a huge amount of expertise in the Premiership and it’d be nice to think that they would take advantage of that.â€
Rowe said: “We could be asked at least to attend a meeting. Each club has invested a lot of money in those players that go to play for England, but we have no input as to how they are coached.
“Perhaps they should consider taking advice. I can guarantee that every single coach in the Premiership would say the same: they know their players, they know how their assets should best be used. The Premiership coaches have taken their boys to a very high level; why is their input not sought?â€
Stephen Vaughan, the managing director of Gloucester, said: “We are stakeholders in the England team and so the World Cup is important to us. And we have a multitude of expertise.â€
Vaughan mentioned David Humphreys, the director of rugby at Gloucester, and Dean Richards and Dean Ryan, the director of rugby at Newcastle Falcons and Worcester Warriors respectively, as experts whose opinions should be sought. “It would be useful to share their thoughts,†he said. “Jim Mallinder [director of rugby at Northampton Saints] would be wonderful to speak to: how have you made Northampton a success? Or Exeter: how have you risen the way you have?â€
Craig said: “We’ve got 12 very successful clubs, we know who are the good coaches, we know what should be done. We have the expertise.â€
Traditionally, the clubs have made their opinions heard within the RFU because they have four spots on the Professional Game Board (PGB). However, the PGB does not carry much influence and, in the review into England’s World Cup failure, it is not going to be consulted.
“There are people on the PGB with significant rugby knowledge,†Craig said. He occupies one of the PRL’s positions on the PGB. “The PGB needs to be given more teeth.â€
Some clubs believe that they might yet experience a positive impact from the World Cup. Both Sandy Park, Exeter’s home ground, and Kingsholm, Gloucester, hosted World Cup games and were a spectacular success. There may be new fans who experienced rugby for the first time at those venues and may decide to come back for more.
“We will not be getting the Jonny Wilkinson moment,†Vaughan said. “Our plan for the World Cup was to engage with more people and we will carry on regardless, but there is no doubt that not having the hosts in the tournament is going to have an impact.â€

Only really skimmed this so not responding in full, but my feeling is this is about the owners not the coaches. The idea of Ford, Cockerill, Mallinder etc. having a role to play in the England setup is interesting and worth discussing. The idea of Craig and Wray sticking their fingers in fills me with dread to be honest.
 
I think it depends what kind of game you want to play - if you remember, when we had Hartley at hooker we were never shown up at the scrum as we were against the Aussies, no matter who we played at lock (we beat the French with Parling and Lawes there!) If we want set-piece dominance, Attwood is the best choice, but if we want to play a more expansive game, Lawes and Launchbury are the best combo.

And no, I´m not a Northampton fan, but I do appreciate the way they try to play, unlike Leicester.
 
I think it depends what kind of game you want to play - if you remember, when we had Hartley at hooker we were never shown up at the scrum as we were against the Aussies, no matter who we played at lock (we beat the French with Parling and Lawes there!) If we want set-piece dominance, Attwood is the best choice, but if we want to play a more expansive game, Lawes and Launchbury are the best combo.

And no, I´m not a Northampton fan, but I do appreciate the way they try to play, unlike Leicester.

As a saints fan (and a massive lawes fan) I do think he needs to go away and work on his carrying, tucking etc. Also we must look at kitchner, always very impressed by him
 
I think Kitchener and Slater must be looked at.

For me a lock should be in the thick of things putting his head where it hurts. Launchbury does that...I just don't feel Lawes is good at the side of the game. Kitchener, Slater and Kruis offer more in there.

I would be tempted to have one more look at Attwood aswell...

We need to bring some genuine steel back to the pack...
 
I can see where the AP is coming from TBH.

Not in how it is run but on how the players might be used etc.

WHY did Lancaster/England want the players to be a different type of fit? Why was he so focus on getting them to be the fittest England team ever.
 
Given the hash the RFU have made of the head coach job since 2004 would having a few AP reps having an input of these decisions be such a bad thing? The past tells us the RFU tends to be a boys club where if your face doesn't fit or your opinion is a bit different you get sidelined.

Having a few hardened souls from club rugby might improve things.
 
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