England Post-WC discussion

[Peat]

But they play in a competition and clubs better structured to provide players ready for the international environment. That's the key point. Not how good the competition is, but how relevant it is.

 

[Wimero]

Cheers for the links,

I would honestly just drop Wood out of the EPS completely. The more I hear about him recently, the more toxic he seems - way way way too big for his boots considering the kind of performances he's been putting in over the last....well, ****ing ages really.

Totally agree.Backstabbing*******.Just trying to cover his arse for when the big shakeup comes.Who's he kidding.In my book should have been out of the England side ages ago.
I genuinely feel sorry for Robshaw.Whatever his failings he gave it his all.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Think this is an overreaction against the Wood article.

However he does not deserve his place in the squad. Feel horrible for Robshaw and Lancaster though. A new coach needs to come in and start as Lancaster started. Creating a squad which plays to their game plan and also pick the form players.

I still remember when Lancaster came in and selected exciting players, tried new things etc.

 

[ratsapprentice]

But if you bring either in for Lawes´ then the line out suffers, and if you bring either in for Launchbury then our all-round game suffers. I think the solution is to find a scrummaging coach like Mario Ledesma - Australia seem to be doing well without their super-heavyweight lock.

Err.... Kane Douglas and Will Skelton ain't lightweights.

Not sure how there is still any question that a single governing body is better than two independent ones?

 

[j'nuh]

Cheers for the links,

I would honestly just drop Wood out of the EPS completely. The more I hear about him recently, the more toxic he seems - way way way too big for his boots considering the kind of performances he's been putting in over the last....well, ****ing ages really.

Eh, reading the articles, I don't even understand what Wood has done wrong here.

Interviewer asks if he would accept the captaincy if asked and he said yes. He also said Robshaw has his and the squad's backing.

Not sure what else Wood could have done? Looks to me that the headline is written by an editor or something, because it is not really in fitting with the rest of the article. Wood being asked whether he would accept the England captaincy and him saying he would, is hardly a pitch for the captaincy.

 

[Peat]

Sometimes it's more sensible not to answer a question at all.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't he supposed to be one of the loudest voices saying that basically the older players (i,e, him) get to have their say in the review, but no one else.

 

[Peat]

Isn't he supposed to be one of the loudest voices saying that basically the older players (i,e, him) get to have their say in the review, but no one else.

"You've got to filter out some of the nonsense, the white noise and the individual frustrations to make sure we get a group appraisal, rather than 31 voices coming from everywhere."

Yup.

 

[RedruthRFC]

But they play in a competition and clubs better structured to provide players ready for the international environment. That's the key point. Not how good the competition is, but how relevant it is.

Taking Wales as an example, is this true though? If the players arrived ready for the international environment, why did the coaching staff feel the need to put them through a boot camp style beasting as soon as they got their hands on them? I remember commenting at the time that clubs (not just the Welsh) should be capable for delivering players to their national team camps already in peak condition.

Did the Super Rugby lads require a similar beasting when they got together with their national coaches?

 

[Peat]

Taking Wales as an example, is this true though? If the players arrived ready for the international environment, why did the coaching staff feel the need to put them through a boot camp style beasting as soon as they got their hands on them? I remember commenting at the time that clubs (not just the Welsh) should be capable for delivering players to their national team camps already in peak condition.

Did the Super Rugby lads require a similar beasting when they got together with their national coaches?

I believe it is - it's not all about physical fitness. The way they contest the ruck is closer, their players get a bit more rest, they are in less teams which helps.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I believe it is - it's not all about physical fitness. The way they contest the ruck is closer, their players get a bit more rest, they are in less teams which helps.

Fair enough, I misinterpreted your point, it makes more sense now. The physical aspect interests me though, were the Welsh team simply unlucky with injuries, or were a portion influenced by players' conditioning? If the latter, are the clubs getting players into this state (despite the decreased burden on them) or is it the national coaches?

I've said before in this thread that the RFU should be more dictatorial to the clubs regarding what they want certain players to be working on. If clubs refuse to play ball, the RFU are holding the trump card by being able to tell a player that they need to move clubs or hamper their international ambitions.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I've said before in this thread that the RFU should be more dictatorial to the clubs regarding what they want certain players to be working on. If clubs refuse to play ball, the RFU are holding the trump card by being able to tell a player that they need to move clubs or hamper their international ambitions.

Shouldn't be an issue.

It is because we have two organisations with different motivations.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Shouldn't be an issue.

It is because we have two organisations with different motivations.

Indeed. The point that I was making is that the RFU wield more power than they appear to realise in these this instance.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I know you're well aware - I just think it's important that we are reminded often that we have a fundamentally flawed system.

 

[msf]

Lawes is a lineout caller, with both England and Northampton when Parling and Day, respectively, aren´t playing. He isn´t as good at calling as either of these, but he is actually a great line out forward - both England and Northampton put him in the middle of the lineout even with their top caller playing, because Lawes is the most athletic jumper (not surprising when he is sometimes derided for being too lanky).

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Ratsapprentice, I found two widely differing stats on Douglas - one had him as an Etzebeth or Retallick, the other as a Launchbury (in size). My first impression is that he is closer to Launchbury in size - he certainly is nowhere near Skelton´s size, yet played ahead of him even before Skelton was injured.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Douglas is a big, strong unit - he's definitely a TH lock.

 

[msf]

I´m also going to defend Wood - I think he offers much more than Robshaw, both playing wise and captaincy wise. He is a similar player to Robshaw, but is much better in the line out and runs better lines, including support lines (watch the Australia match again, and the end of the Uruguay one). For the same reasons he offers more than Haskell (he can actually catch the ball too!), and therefore is likely to be worth a place in the starting XV, at least until Itoje comes through. If we are looking for a stop-gap captain, he´s the man. The only other options I see are Launchbury, who I think should be left to get on with trying to get to the level of Etzebeth and Retallick, which I´m sure he can do, or Itoje or Clifford at some point in the future, but I can´t see them being put straight in as captain.

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So is Launchbury, in that he always plays there - I was talking about how big he is compared to other tight-head locks.

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Also, at least Wood gives interesting interviews (sometimes).

 

[Aristodemus]

I think if we are talking long term possible solutions at 6, then we need to throw Burgess into that mix. I'm a huge Itoje fan though so if he does end up switching my money is on him nailing that spot down very soon.

 

[msf]

Yeah, but both Burgess and Ewers won´t get in there until either they learn to jump in the line out, or Vunipola and Morgan are replaced at no.8, assuming (vainly?) that we are finally going to play a fetcher at 7.

 

[Peat]

Funny what people see. The only thing Wood offers to me now is the lineout; he doesn't win collisions, he doesn't work hard, he is the single greatest source of dumb penalties in the squad. If he never played for England again I wouldn't be cut up, and the idea of him as captain after he blithely announced intentions to whitewash the review makes me want to projectile vomit everywhere.


Also, there's no reason Lawes can't be as good a caller as Parling and Day; all it takes is willingness to graft away at knowing the subject. I remember when he first said he was doing less work than Parling and I think my eyebrows hit the moon.