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England Post-WC discussion

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Don't disagree with any of that. The very best locks have rounded games, but their primary work is in the tight and the close exchanges. In these areas Lawes is lacking. Restoring solidity to the front 5 should be the priority for the 6N. Without that solid base the whole team is compromised.
A hit from Lawes is the tackling equivalent of breakdown specialism. When it doesn't dislodge the ball, turning it over, it makes the opposition's forwards work hard to get the ball back, slowing down delivery. If his form is good and he's doing a lot of it, it's quite useful to have.

But in an ideal world, I'd like to see a second row with a strong leg drive on him. Someone like Etzebeth, who might not necessarily make breaks, but will stay on their feet moving forward. Useful for tight carrying and resetting play.
 
I have serious doubts about Armitage. I doubt his fitness, his attitude, his commitment and even his general ability outside of a dominating team.

He still has the greatest demonstrated ceiling of ability at club level out of basically any English player though. Even when docking points for doubts, he's still probably one of our better ideas if available. Like, I share enough of your doubts that I don't support rewriting the rules just for him, but he's clearly one of our more likely players to have an impact at international level. If he's available, we find out.

I like Kvesic, but he needs to go and boss hog a few high profile games. Hoping he gets a chance this 6N. Armitage was in a clearly outgunned World XV against the Bokke and still looked rocking.
 
A hit from Lawes is the tackling equivalent of breakdown specialism. When it doesn't dislodge the ball, turning it over, it makes the opposition's forwards work hard to get the ball back, slowing down delivery. If his form is good and he's doing a lot of it, it's quite useful to have.

When has he ever done it a lot though?

For Saints he might get one every 5 games... I'd prefer a guy who will put in 5-10 dominant tackles that don't make the highlight reel, than one jaw droppingly massive "sack" every couple of games.
If it was that much of a boon, Motu Matu'u would be playing for NZ, not Samoa.

The same goes for carrying - although Courtney's ability in the wide channels is pretty good - his tight carrying and rucking isn't.
 
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When has he ever done it a lot though?

For Saints he might get one every 5 games... I'd prefer a guy who will put in 5-10 dominant tackles that don't make the highlight reel, than one jaw droppingly massive "sack" every couple of games.
If it was that much of a boon, Motu Matu'u would be playing for NZ, not Samoa.

The same goes for carrying - although Courtney's ability in the wide channels is pretty good - his tight carrying isn't.

Fully agreed. Internationally you need consistent 8/10 performers. Lawes seems to deliver the occasional stellar game interspersed with lots of OKs but not much in between. He's got 40+ caps now and it's disappointing he hasn't morphed into one of our leaders. In fact I don't think he can even be sure of his place any more.
 
Fully agreed. Internationally you need consistent 8/10 performers. Lawes seems to deliver the occasional stellar game interspersed with lots of OKs but not much in between. He's got 40+ caps now and it's disappointing he hasn't morphed into one of our leaders. In fact I don't think he can even be sure of his place any more.

And so is the case with many England players it seems. So many look like they could go that bit further and then don't. It's actually sort of worrying how we have so many "good" players yet struggle so much to produce "great" players. Hell even Italy managed it with Parisse.
 
And so is the case with many England players it seems. So many look like they could go that bit further and then don't. It's actually sort of worrying how we have so many "good" players yet struggle so much to produce "great" players. Hell even Italy managed it with Parisse.

That right there is possibly the biggest problem in English rugby.
 
He still has the greatest demonstrated ceiling of ability at club level out of basically any English player though. Even when docking points for doubts, he's still probably one of our better ideas if available. Like, I share enough of your doubts that I don't support rewriting the rules just for him, but he's clearly one of our more likely players to have an impact at international level. If he's available, we find out.

I like Kvesic, but he needs to go and boss hog a few high profile games. Hoping he gets a chance this 6N. Armitage was in a clearly outgunned World XV against the Bokke and still looked rocking.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Armitage is bad. It's more that I think that highly of Kvesic, than thinking lowly of Armitage.

When has he ever done it a lot though?

For Saints he might get one every 5 games... I'd prefer a guy who will put in 5-10 dominant tackles that don't make the highlight reel, than one jaw droppingly massive "sack" every couple of games.
If it was that much of a boon, Motu Matu'u would be playing for NZ, not Samoa.

The same goes for carrying - although Courtney's ability in the wide channels is pretty good - his tight carrying and rucking isn't.
100% agreed. I'd call Lawes' hits a little perk to his game, something nice to have if he gets the rest of his game right. Although I don't think he does his hits as rarely as once every five games. At his best, it'll be at least one a game.

But we lack in so many fundamentals as a pack that it's not a game-changer as far as selections come; the rest of his game needs to be spot on. In an ideal world, I'd love for us to have a powerful lock with a massive leg drive, who might not break tackles, but can stay on his feet and drive forward to give us some good reset ball. An Etzebeth-like player. Not sure who exactly fits that bill though.

And so is the case with many England players it seems. So many look like they could go that bit further and then don't. It's actually sort of worrying how we have so many "good" players yet struggle so much to produce "great" players. Hell even Italy managed it with Parisse.
Our U20s are fine, we have one of the best teams there.
Our clubs are fine, we remain fairly competitive in Europe despite diluting our stars amongst so many teams.
It makes me think that the problem is the transition between club and country. If so, that's not as dire a situation as it could be, as the problem is in the final link in the chain.

Prediction-wise, for me, it comes down to poor tactics. I think our stars are hidden in poor game plans. Take the same set of players and give them all Irish nationalities and I think stars would emerge within a year. You can't tell a star to do daft things and expect them to retain star status. It's like telling Usain Bolt to run the 100m on his hands and cursing him when he doesn't place first.
 
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100% agreed. I'd call Lawes' hits a little perk to his game, something nice to have if he gets the rest of his game right. Although I don't think he does his hits as rarely as once every five games. At his best, it'll be at least one a game.

He also seems to be carrying no fewer than two joint/ligament injuries at any one time. When he's on form I've seen him totally dominate teams, but those times are few and far between. Consistency seems to be a common theme with English players, for some reason it's hard to find a really talented one who can consistently play at a high level. Plenty of Farrell/Barritt/Hartley/Robshaw types, but I think that says it all in terms of talent level. I also have half-formed ideas/observations around instincts and how I don't see England as producing particularly instinctive players.

Our U20s are fine, we have one of the best teams there.
Our clubs are fine, we remain fairly competitive in Europe despite diluting our stars amongst so many teams.
It makes me think that the problem is the transition between club and country. If so, that's not as dire a situation as it could be, as the problem is in the final link in the chain.

Prediction-wise, for me, it comes down to poor tactics. I think our stars are hidden in poor game plans. Take the same set of players and give them all Irish nationalities and I think stars would emerge within a year. You can't tell a star to do daft things and expect them to retain star status. It's like telling Usain Bolt to run the 100m on his hands and cursing him when he doesn't place first.

I have a feeling part of it is coaching and trends in the Premiership over the last 10 years - I'm also wondering whether, in this instance, the size of the English player base hurts it rather than helping. It's all conjecture on my part, but perhaps there are ways in which having more choice of players makes it easier to pick players to fit certain systems (particularly with regards to lower age-grade rugby), whereas nations with a smaller number of players to choose from will be much more restricted and have to be much more flexible with regards to how they want their team to play the game. I have nothing to back that up, just bouncing ideas around.
 
I cannot believe that people are calling for the immediate inclusion of Itoje are they?

One for the future, certainly, but he has only played in 15 games at the top level to date?
 
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Armitage is bad. It's more that I think that highly of Kvesic, than thinking lowly of Armitage.

That is a call the size of Texas and while I'd love you to be right, I can't see I've seen too much evidence for it.

Our U20s are fine, we have one of the best teams there.
Our clubs are fine, we remain fairly competitive in Europe despite diluting our stars amongst so many teams.
It makes me think that the problem is the transition between club and country. If so, that's not as dire a situation as it could be, as the problem is in the final link in the chain.

Prediction-wise, for me, it comes down to poor tactics. I think our stars are hidden in poor game plans. Take the same set of players and give them all Irish nationalities and I think stars would emerge within a year. You can't tell a star to do daft things and expect them to retain star status. It's like telling Usain Bolt to run the 100m on his hands and cursing him when he doesn't place first.

Having the best team and having the best prospects aren't quite the same thing in fairness. I mean, we clearly do have some tidy guys, but we can chuck out better athletes than the rest and that gives us a pretty big advantage, we're going to be fairly dominant whatever and it's easy to look good in a dominant team.

I also don't think the AP is great prep for international rugby, particularly when it comes to the breakdown, and don't think our clubs are competitive enough in Europe, although that might be changing. I also don't think they're spending enough time on skills training either, a lot of guys come out of the U20s with a shaky skill here or there and never ever fix it. Which might also point to a lack of ambition and work ethic among young prospects, why aren't scrum-halves practising their passing and box kicking all hours?

I think you're overegging our guys quite a bit tbh.
 
And so is the case with many England players it seems. So many look like they could go that bit further and then don't. It's actually sort of worrying how we have so many "good" players yet struggle so much to produce "great" players. Hell even Italy managed it with Parisse.

Parisse is Argentinian ;)

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I cannot believe that people are calling for the immediate inclusion of Itoje are they?

One for the future, certainly, but he has only played in 15 games at the top level to date?

No I think its who to partner Launchbury.

Out of:
Attwood - Aside from really boosting the scrum I don't think he's brought his physicality to this level. One last chance?
Kitchener - Been injured pretty much since January. 6'7 19+st...lineout man....a top class lock. Must get the chance if fit.
Slater - Again, the bruiser we are missing. This knee issue is a concern though, still not fixed.
Symons - His S15 form bodes well....but lets see how he goes for Irish.
Matthews - Not ready
Garvey? - Is he focusing on 4/5 or 6?

We forget ....it doesn't have to be the best lock. It has to be one that gives the best to the England team.

Ie Oly Kohn for Quins. He wasn't a star he was a big old lump. Quins played a lightweight athletic pack where others got the recognition...but Kohn gave them some real grunt and physical presence to allow others to do the work. And I think they missed him massively when he left.

England need to find that kind of player at the next level for England.

Personally I want to see how the Tigers lads go. If they can get fit.
 
No I think its who to partner Launchbury.

Out of:

Kitchener - Been injured pretty much since January. 6'7 19+st...lineout man....a top class lock. Must get the chance if fit.
Slater - Again, the bruiser we are missing. This knee issue is a concern though, still not fixed.
Symons - His S15 form bodes well....but lets see how he goes for Irish.
Matthews - Not ready
Garvey? - Is he focusing on 4/5 or 6?

Personally I want to see how the Tigers lads go. If they can get fit.

Kitchener played 24 games last season including 11 from the new year.

Don't know where you got he was injured most of Jan.
 
Kitchener played 24 games last season including 11 from the new year.

Don't know where you got he was injured most of Jan.

Sorry what I meant Tigs was that he has been carrying a ****le and not at full 100%. Well that's what I had been told by a Tigers fan anyway. May be wrong. :D
 
Those criticising Lawes´ contribution are missing the point, in my opinion. The problem is not that Lawes or Launchbury have any massive areas to work on, but rather that they might not be the best combination in the tight. Lawes´mauling work is pretty good, but neither seems to add a lot to the scrum, so when the front rowers aren´t doing the business it might make sense to bring in a heftier, but less talented lock like Attwood or Slater.

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But if you bring either in for Lawes´ then the line out suffers, and if you bring either in for Launchbury then our all-round game suffers. I think the solution is to find a scrummaging coach like Mario Ledesma - Australia seem to be doing well without their super-heavyweight lock.
 
I'm sorry but Lawes isn't a lineout caller, I don't see Attwood or slater making a drop in that department.

Anyway anyone else see the spat between Ward and Wood.

Whilst Ward hasn't read the whole article, Wood clearly has eyes on the captaincy he has been the loudest of the lot has said that the review needs to talk to senior players. Doing his best to keep Lancaster in.

He was originally captain before injury.
 
Would you keep either of Wood or Robshaw in the starting team Tigs?
 
I'm sorry but Lawes isn't a lineout caller, I don't see Attwood or slater making a drop in that department.

Anyway anyone else see the spat between Ward and Wood.

Whilst Ward hasn't read the whole article, Wood clearly has eyes on the captaincy he has been the loudest of the lot has said that the review needs to talk to senior players. Doing his best to keep Lancaster in.

He was originally captain before injury.

He was going to be captain but was injured first!
 
What was Ward saying?
Can see Wood kicking off but Ward has deleted his tweets.
 
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