England Post-WC discussion

[Peat]

And every rugby country in the world has these questions.

 

[j'nuh]

I'd like us to do away with playmaking 12s. I almost feel that our handling skills just aren't good enough to handle that kind of play style. Even if we have someone with those kind of skills at 12, we have few that can feed off that.

Hammer and scythe all the way.

So Slade to 10. I have higher hopes for him than either Farrell or Ford.

 

[dullonien]

Imo the best thing for Underhill himself, and his development as a 6/7 is to stay at the Ospreys a couple more years, then he can play for a better team in Wales. Jk, jk.

Seriously though, by staying at the O's, he'll have the opportunity to work with one of the most destructive blindsides in the game in Lydiate (an area he's admittedly already very good at, but there's always room for a bit of improvement), and more importantly one of the most creative opensides in the game. If he wishes to play international rugby as an openside, he's still got a lot to work on imo. He could probably slot into the English team at 6, and have a good international career, but he's a little way off at 7 imo. He's never going to be as effective as Tips in open play (not many are), and he's not that type of player, but he could still learn and improve certain aspects of his game with Tips' guidance.

I think it's the perfect environment for a young flanker. There's also plenty of quality opposition players for him to test himself against in the Pro12. The Pro12 may be lacking in many areas, but he'll get the opportunity to test himself against the likes of Warburton/Navidi/Elis Jenkins, James Davies/Barclay and Cudd/Olly Griffiths, and that's just the Welsh regions!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Seriously though, by staying at the O's, he'll have the opportunity to work with one of the most destructive blindsides in the game in Lydiate (an area he's admittedly already very good at, but there's always room for a bit of improvement), and more importantly one of the most creative opensides in the game.

Or Ewers and Salvi at Chiefs

 

[dullonien]

Or Ewers and Salvi at Chiefs

Pah! Ewers shmewers, Salvi palvi!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pah! Ewers shmewers, Salvi palvi!

Well if he wants to learn how to be a REAL openside then he should come to Sale.
Dave Seymour as a mentor, Dan Braid and Hendre Fourie as coaches.
He'd be a breakdown GOD.

 

[Peat]

If he wishes to play international rugby as an openside, he's still got a lot to work on imo. He could probably slot into the English team at 6, and have a good international career, but he's a little way off at 7 imo.

The problem for the Ospreys' chances of keeping him is that this is roughly speaking true of England's opensides - that or the coach wants them to get 'roiding - and as such, even as he is now, he's probably going to walk straight into the squad. He must be aware of this already, but it will probably be conveyed to him if he's somehow missed it; come back east of the Dyke and your international career starts more or less immediately.

And, in a lot of ways, I agree that he's at one of the best clubs for him at the moment. The Pro 12 has a better competition at the breakdown than the AP. If he could get into the EPS from where he was I'd be happy for him to stay - but alas, that cannot be. At best, you'll get one more full season out of him imo.

 

[Maverick1987]

Is Sam Underhill eligible for the England u20s squad for the JWC later this year if he's playing in Wales ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As far as I know he isn't, but the RFU agreements are so convoluted who knows what's going on.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't know whether the EPS rules apply to U20's... the EPS rules aren't particularly convoluted.

 

[Wendigo7]

Imo the best thing for Underhill himself, and his development as a 6/7 is to stay at the Ospreys a couple more years, then he can play for a better team in Wales. Jk, jk.

Seriously though, by staying at the O's, he'll have the opportunity to work with one of the most destructive blindsides in the game in Lydiate (an area he's admittedly already very good at, but there's always room for a bit of improvement), and more importantly one of the most creative opensides in the game. If he wishes to play international rugby as an openside, he's still got a lot to work on imo. He could probably slot into the English team at 6, and have a good international career, but he's a little way off at 7 imo. He's never going to be as effective as Tips in open play (not many are), and he's not that type of player, but he could still learn and improve certain aspects of his game with Tips' guidance.

I think it's the perfect environment for a young flanker. There's also plenty of quality opposition players for him to test himself against in the Pro12. The Pro12 may be lacking in many areas, but he'll get the opportunity to test himself against the likes of Warburton/Navidi/Elis Jenkins, James Davies/Barclay and Cudd/Olly Griffiths, and that's just the Welsh regions!

I'm torn because I basically agree he's at the right place right now. Fantastic to be playing with Tipuric and Lydiate.

If I'm honest, he doesn't and I don't think he'll ever be an openside, Opensides tend to be fetchers from a young age, you don't just convert them. What he definitely is, is his mentor Richard Hill and you can see it in the way he plays. Tipuric looks much happier being around him because he has that Hill like ability to play bloody well and be near MOM and make his partners role so much easier. That's a very rare trait.

I just don't want the risk of Gatland having a word and would actually prefer an england club like Wasps, Exeter or Sarries to come in and get him and start him week in week out.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think you're being far too quick to say he's not a good fetcher... the guy has just gone up the ladder so fast he may not have had time to adapt to the pace of the game.

You could see him looking for the opportunity all game, the rucks just formed too quickly for him to get in - see where he is after 10-15 senior games... he may have found his timing at that point.

 

[Patchey]

I've had a smug grin on my face all week after Clifford was selected, two years of telling everyone I know who cares that he was going to break through have paid off...

He has always been seen as a long term replacement to Easter, it's just that Minty decided to go all bionic man and refuse to break / retired / lose form! The real irony for me is that last season Clifford developed into a really excellent 6, because Robshaw was being forced to play 7, and now Lancaster has gone Robshaw gets to play at 6 and Clifford is now suddenly at 7... I swear England selection is designed to mess with Quins back rows!,

On Haskell, I think it makes sense in a way. Jones has already said that he want to both win games immediately and build towards the future. That is hard and means you sometimes have to slow the pace you make chances at. Haskell is not a natural 7 but, especially if Jones is thinking about bringing a few new caps into the back row / pack in general, he is a reliable option for a tricky away game in Edinburgh. Maybe he is planning to start Itoje at 6 or Beaumont at 8 and, in lieu of an experience English open side to partner him has chosen the best fit? I mean if he goes ahead and picks Robshaw at 6 then obviously my theory is guff...

On Kvesic, I really hope he gets his chance at 7. I think he might against Italy, that would make sense especially if my little theory above holds true.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well if he wants to learn how to be a REAL openside then he should come to Sale.
Dave Seymour as a mentor, Dan Braid and Hendre Fourie as coaches.
He'd be a breakdown GOD.

Yeah but if he goes to Sale, he won't get England selection

#TooNorthern

 

[j'nuh]

If he were to come back to Gloucester, he could have his England career cut short by regular injuries and the England selector's indifference to the club.

But he'd be on the right side of the shed, and that counts for something right?

I do wonder whether Underhill might stay in Wales in order to finish his studies first though. There's a question whether, when Lydiate and Tipuric are both fit, he'll get regular time at Ospreys though. He's studying at Cardiff Uni, so maybe a two year contract at Cardiff to play alongside Warburton would be a good idea. 22 isn't exactly an old age to come back to England at!

 

[ratsapprentice]

TBF if he continues to put in performances like he has then he'll be ahead of Lydiate - just as physical but he can actually play rugby with the ball as well as without it.

 

[j'nuh]

A couple of seasons ago maybe. But Gatland has a lot more influence at the regions now, and I reckon he'll have a way of forcing Ospreys hand into picking Lydiate. He wouldn't want his first-choice blindside on the bench every week.

Not that it's a major concern. Rotating three players for two positions isn't particularly difficult, especially when two go away on international duty so often. It just might mean that Underhill will miss out on the big games.

 

[yaboyjj]

If he were to come back to Gloucester, he could have his England career cut short by regular injuries and the England selector's indifference to the club.

But he'd be on the right side of the shed, and that counts for something right?

I do wonder whether Underhill might stay in Wales in order to finish his studies first though. There's a question whether, when Lydiate and Tipuric are both fit, he'll get regular time at Ospreys though. He's studying at Cardiff Uni, so maybe a two year contract at Cardiff to play alongside Warburton would be a good idea. 22 isn't exactly an old age to come back to England at!

:lol:
Don't be silly, everyone knows that Warburton never plays club rugby.

 

[Which Tyler]

Here we go again!!! Someone Plays well (exceedingly well even) for a bit, gets noticed, becomes the best thing since sliced bread.......

I am not for one minute suggesting Underhill will not be the biggest thing since.....well... ever, but he is only 19......what ever happened to learning your craft?

It's 2016 now, I demand that we find a new Messiah before the 6N starts.
Henry Slade is SOooooo 2015!

I know, I know, HS is injured, and therefore at least 50% better than he was whilst actually playing rugby; but still; his time as Messiah is long passed.

 

[Thingimubob]

TBF if he continues to put in performances like he has then he'll be ahead of Lydiate - just as physical but he can actually play rugby with the ball as well as without it.

To be fair to Lydiate, his ball in hand play has come on leaps and bounds since joining the Ospreys - hence that lovely little flick pass to Biggar vs France last year. I read somewhere that he apparently attributes that to playing with Tips - said he's learnt loads from the guy.

Underhill will learn a hell of a lot from both Lydiate and Tip this season, but wouldn't say he's anywhere near being ahead of Lydiate at the moment.

I imagine he'll be playing for the Ospreys while both are away with Wales, so will be good to see how he gets on.

If he were to come back to Gloucester, he could have his England career cut short by regular injuries and the England selector's indifference to the club.

But he'd be on the right side of the shed, and that counts for something right?

I do wonder whether Underhill might stay in Wales in order to finish his studies first though. There's a question whether, when Lydiate and Tipuric are both fit, he'll get regular time at Ospreys though. He's studying at Cardiff Uni, so maybe a two year contract at Cardiff to play alongside Warburton would be a good idea. 22 isn't exactly an old age to come back to England at!

He'd have very stiff competition to get into the back row at Cardiff. Blues have 3 excellent 7's in Warbs, Ellis Jenkins and Navidi, plus Josh Turnbull has been putting in some very good performances at 6.