England Post-WC discussion

[Duck a l'Orange]

Has manu showed a lack of consistency bar being injured?

Hard to tell. He's been out for a year and a half.

All 25 minutes he's played since coming back have been good though, so we can only hope.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Just noticed that Underhill is supposedly 110kg.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just noticed that Underhill is supposedly 110kg.

Seriously? That is the wikipedia weight for Tuilagi. That's can't be right surely? He's 103kg on wiki.

 

[optimuswolf]

Has manu showed a lack of consistency bar being injured?

I was thinking more that he could be amazing and needs to grow up a little and work on certain aspects of his game.

I think he's been consistently v good for england when fit.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Seriously? That is the wikipedia weight for Tuilagi. That's can't be right surely? He's 103kg on wiki.

And the same weight as Tom Croft - Manu is massive for a back - not a forward.

 

[j'nuh]

Some very illuminating insight from Laurie Fisher into Kvesic's "exclusion" from England:

Fisher said: "I was a little surprised but that said Eddie probably sees a slight lack of physicality in his game.
...
While Kvesic has secured more turnovers than any other player in the Premiership, he trails his rivals in terms of carries and tackles per minute.

And Fisher believes he must bring greater venom to both areas of his game to become the all-round modern opensie.

He continued: "Eddie sees a guy who can turn the ball over but it's about every contact. If you have 25 body-on-body contacts in a game you have to win 20 of those.

"He has a slight tendency to give ground in order to find the ball but you need to dominate contact first. This will be a great opportunity to understand and develop that.

http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/...ence-prosper/story-28529618-detail/story.html

That being said, I still see Kev as being the best 7, but I guess I can see where Jones/Fisher is coming from.

Really hope Fisher is around for a while yet at Glos. He's doing great work with Kev, and it seems like he knows exactly what Kev needs to work on.

 

[Peat]

I dunno. I mean, I can see where they're coming from but equally, there's seven other forwards on the pack, there ain't one other muddafudda in the squad even close to Kvesic as a jackal.

I think the key bit is the work rate. Looking at the various stats, I was puzzled about this thing where he trailed his rivals for carries and tackles per minute... then I realised I shouldn't be comparing him to other 7s, the comparison is Clifford and Haskell, and yeah, he looks bad there. Jones wants an openside with the abrasiveness and physicality of a blindside and fancies his chances of teaching a quick blindside how to do openside better than he fancies his chances of getting a relatively small openside to play like a blindside. It's the most common of English diseases (although very widespread at the moment (hi Tipuric)). Not saying it can't work or there isn't logic to it (the best opensides atm can all play 6/8) but it's a bit sad anyway.

He'll like Underhill. I think he'll like Ludlam when his time comes. And, well, if he wants guys who could play 6/8, then maybe he wants to go direct to the U20 8s (where we're having rich crops) and see who thinks they could be 7s.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

"I hate 6.5s, they're awful. You need a real 7.
So what I'm gonna do is get a load of 6s and have them play 7."

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'm looking forward to seeing Kvesic in an England jersey.
This could be the time when England really turn a corner and get back on track aka 2003.
A 'proper' sniffer is essential if you want to win silverware.

 

[ncurd]

http://m.westerndailypress.co.uk/England-shock-says-Devoto/story-28530629-detail/story.html
Devoto pretty surprised with his call up, Eastmond saying he knows what he has to do it grow a few inches and gain a few pounds

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

You guys are idiots. What jones is saying is I want a openside who is a good jackel and abrasive in the tackle.

That's not a 6.5 that's a mccaw, hopper, poacock, warbaton, louw.

Those guys do both, that's all Eddie wants.

 

[msf]

So, Devoto to Exeter as expected...I think this should clear up the midfield situation somewhat, as Slade should now play more at 10, Devoto at 12, and Hill either not at all, at 13, or at 12 when one of Devoto and Slade is absent. I think this should lead to a future England midfield of either Slade/Daly and Tuilagi (Jones has said they won´t always play in their club position) or Devoto and Tuilagi/Joseph. I can´t see Jones going with Slade and Joseph against the NZ or SA, not if they have Sonny Bill and Fekitoa, or whatever lump SA will have at 12 in the future. A third combo would be Hill and Slade/Daly. With all those combos you get a left foot (meaning we can put Watson at FB instead of Brown), a distributor, and someone who can break the line/defend aggressively at 12. If Slade or Daly is involved you also have someone to take the long-range kicks.

I expect Jones to settle on one of these combos with Ford/Slade at 10, and hopefully Cook/Chudley at 9. There will be a strong Bath or Exeter flavour (or both) in any case, but seeing as they are the two best teams to watch in the premiership I do not have a problem with this.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Chudley is no where near England he is only a year younger than care and 2 years older than Youngs.

Charley is 28 in March.

Also Lol at Bath being 1 of the 2 best teams to watch this season.

Other than Toulon game when else have they been exciting?

 

[stus768]

I dunno. I mean, I can see where they're coming from but equally, there's seven other forwards on the pack, there ain't one other muddafudda in the squad even close to Kvesic as a jackal.

I think the key bit is the work rate. Looking at the various stats, I was puzzled about this thing where he trailed his rivals for carries and tackles per minute... then I realised I shouldn't be comparing him to other 7s, the comparison is Clifford and Haskell, and yeah, he looks bad there. Jones wants an openside with the abrasiveness and physicality of a blindside and fancies his chances of teaching a quick blindside how to do openside better than he fancies his chances of getting a relatively small openside to play like a blindside. It's the most common of English diseases (although very widespread at the moment (hi Tipuric)). Not saying it can't work or there isn't logic to it (the best opensides atm can all play 6/8) but it's a bit sad anyway.

He'll like Underhill. I think he'll like Ludlam when his time comes. And, well, if he wants guys who could play 6/8, then maybe he wants to go direct to the U20 8s (where we're having rich crops) and see who thinks they could be 7s.

7s shouldn't be making a ton of tackles. It's pretty hard to slow the ball down or jackal if ur the one making the tackle. It's why a log of teams target pocock, if they have a choice, as the person to run into.

 

[msf]

Chudley was mentioned a lot before the England squad came out, who knows if he was in Jones´ mind? And I did say in the future - he isn´t 28, more like 24. I also think Swiel will compete with Watson at 15 eventually, even if he has to move clubs to do it. How fast will the 34-year old Mike Brown, or 31-year old Alex Goode be?

Bath also played well against Leinster, when O´Driscoll suggested they had overtaken Leinster as the best passing team in Europe. Basically, when Ford and Cook have played they have played like they did last year, but without the cutting edge of Joseph and Burgess (I know Joseph was back for the last game, but they played more of a kicking game against Toulon, I expect them to open up more at home). For some reason Ford thinks he needs to give game time to Matawalu, even at the cost of losing games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I didn't even realise Swiel was still in the country!


Chudley is 27, 28 in March. Not 24.

 

[msf]

Yeah, he apparently played really well against Calvisano at 15, so O´Shea didn´t give him any more chances.

My mistake, I thought Chudley was the same age as Cook for some reason. He might be a little old to improve much then, perhaps someone like Robson is the answer. Or Jones might be able to teach Youngs to pass from the base, or Care to box kick well! Then he really will have worked miracles!

 

[msf]

I just had an idea with the centres. It would make more sense to go with Hill at 12 in the first game, if he wants Tuilagi in there at 12 when he gets match fit. Going from Farrell to Tuilagi, from someone who can´t break a line to someone who can´t make a long pass or kick, would surely throw erase whatever progress has been made by that point in terms of the attacking game. If Jones eventually wants to end up with a Slade-Tuilagi combo, or Tuilagi-Slade combo, as some have suggested, it would make more sense for him to play Daly instead of Joseph, but then they would be playing two uncapped players together, so I can´t see that happening.

It´s a shame Devoto hasn´t been playing much for Bath, or he could just go for Devoto and Joseph from the start and stick with that.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Who do people think would have more potential @ 10.

Ford or Slade?

Just wondering If Slade becomes 10 for Exeter the chances that Ford might be overtaken.

 

[msf]

Who do people think would have more potential @ 10.

Ford or Slade?

Just wondering If Slade becomes 10 for Exeter the chances that Ford might be overtaken.

Depends on what Jones wants. More potential in attack, Ford, more potential in defence, Slade, but with the added bonus (over Farrell) that he is pretty good in attack too.