England Post-WC discussion

[Crapspray]

I know it's unfashionable to be conservative, but I'm not sure I agree with everyone about throwing Clifford in. He's only been getting regular starts at Quins since late last season. I'd rather wait until he picked a position and played there for a season at least before bringing him into the EPS. There are better options on both sides of the scrum at the moment.

I'll stick my neck out even further and say I feel somewhat similar with Itoje - let the lad get up to speed at Sarries, cement a position, or prove he can cover both. There's plenty of good locks to choose from in the meantime. Only 12 needs to be a sink or swim position during the Six Nations.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

I know it's unfashionable to be conservative, but I'm not sure I agree with everyone about throwing Clifford in. He's only been getting regular starts at Quins since late last season. I'd rather wait until he picked a position and played there for a season at least before bringing him into the EPS. There are better options on both sides of the scrum at the moment.

I'll stick my neck out even further and say I feel somewhat similar with Itoje - let the lad get up to speed at Sarries, cement a position, or prove he can cover both. There's plenty of good locks to choose from in the meantime. Only 12 needs to be a sink or swim position during the Six Nations.

I disagree. If Clifford is as good as his competitors at club level let him play. His U20s credentials are helpful in this respect too.

If there's ever been a time for a coach to trust and introduce youngsters this it. As a comparison, Matt Kvesic's opponent in the JWC final was Sam Cane- who now has 31 caps and has captained the All Blacks. Kvesic has two...

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm fairly sure Clifford is in - the newspapers have been stating that he's "caught the eye" of Eddie.

 

[stus768]

I disagree. If Clifford is as good as his competitors at club level let him play. His U20s credentials are helpful in this respect too.

If there's ever been a time for a coach to trust and introduce youngsters this it. As a comparison, Matt Kvesic's opponent in the JWC final was Sam Cane- who now has 31 caps and has captained the All Blacks. Kvesic has two...

Yep. England have been terrible at building players caps especially for future potential stars. Wasting them instead on players like Haskell.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I share the reservations about Clifford and Itoje. Both are wonderful prospects and probably deserving of an EPS place. But until they specialise in a position and make it their own there's a danger that they'll just become useful bench fodder. Same applies to Slade.

England and the clubs need to work together to ensure that some outstanding talent is maximised. The players must also stick their hands up and be quite strident about their preferences and ambitions - that takes some balls for very young men, but top level rugby is no place for shrinking violets or "don't mind" merchants.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[ratsapprentice]

Itoje has played every premiership game bar one as a lock.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Itoje has played every premiership game bar one as a lock.

Indeed, but is this where his future as an international rugby player lies?

Given that most if not all world class locks are taller and bulkier than Itoje, I'm not sure he's is or ever will be big enough to make a good international lock. Just because this is where Saracens see him as being most useful to them, doesn't mean that it's the best thing for his international aspirations.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think it is, yes.

However, that's not why these posters were objecting to him being selected - they were objecting on the grounds he isn't specialising in one position.

If Courtney Lawes and Geoff Parling are big enough to be international locks then Itoje is.

On the counts of scrummaging strength, lineout ability and impact around the field - Itoje is not found wanting in terms of physicality.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah the sarries pack is hardly under powered when he plays 2nd row. Wish people would stop picking him as captain he's far to raw yet.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think it is, yes.

However, that's not why these posters were objecting to him being selected - they were objecting on the grounds he isn't specialising in one position.

If Courtney Lawes and Geoff Parling are big enough to be international locks then Itoje is.

On the counts of scrummaging strength, lineout ability and impact around the field - Itoje is not found wanting in terms of physicality.

I think for me Itoje would be a good lock and never a world class one because of his height and then weight ratio.

But I think he could be a world class 6. Looking at other locks we have Itoje is different but he plays like a 6.

6. Itoje
7. Kvesic
8. Beaumont/ billy v

That's my long term back row.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'd pick Itoje and Launchbury in the second row and have Ewers, Kvesic and Billy V/Hughes/Beaumont in the back row . But an open mind is important

Everyone knows Clifford has the skills to push in

 

[Crapspray]

Itoje has played every premiership game bar one as a lock.

Is that this season, last, or both? Genuine question, as I seem to remember him playing more at blindside last season. Though it could easily be alcohol-fueled delusion this time of year.

Either way, he's the weaker example. My point, especially with Clifford, was the desire to include him as quickly as possible when I don't think it would suit his development -- nor would he necessarily be better than the incumbents. I don't think we need to be as radical as 2012. Sorting out bench selection, balancing the back row, and picking half-decent centers would probably make the majority of the short-term improvement. That would only need four or five changes to the EPS.

Only George and Slade really scream selection to me at the moment, mainly because of the weakness of incumbents or lack of depth in their positions. Itoje probably does too, but I think he suffers because of the number of good 20-something locks. No rush with the others. Binny only got his first caps in Argentina in 2013, but was up to speed by the World Cup. As luck would have it, there's another tour in 2017.

 

[ratsapprentice]

This season.

I certainly think Clifford is better than some of the players currently/previously in the EPS - whether he beats out other new guys coming in is a different matter.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Yeah the sarries pack is hardly under powered when he plays 2nd row. Wish people would stop picking him as captain he's far to raw yet.

Apples and oranges. Sarries don't play international rugby. They have enough power elsewhere in the pack for it not to matter as they're not up against an opposition pack of super-freaks week in, week out like you are in international rugby.

- - - Updated - - -

If Courtney Lawes and Geoff Parling are big enough to be international locks then Itoje is.

Both are reportedly taller and heavier than Itoje.

I was careful to say good international lock. On current form, against current tier one opposition, I wouldn't regard either as good internationals.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Courtney Lawes is about 110kg, giver or take 1-2kg, and has openly stated that he struggles to maintain his size.
These are the different weights he's listed as on various sites: ENG: 111kg, PRL: 109kg, EPC: 113kg, Saints: 115kg.

Parling is probably 115kg max, and he isn't exactly the leanest/most muscular guy about.
ENG: 117kg, PRL: 117kg, EPC: 115kg, Chiefs: 114kg

Maro is listed as 116kg on both the Sarries and Premiership websites and 110kg on the EPC website - the former looking more accurate to me.
He's a junior level shot-putter and clearly doesn't lack for power or strength, and is visibly leaner than both Lawes and Parling.
I think it's ridiculous to try and insinuate that either Lawes or Parling have a "size" advantage, particularly given the relevance of the size in this context.
We refer to size as a general guide for any given player's strength or potential power - clearly, Itoje is the most powerful of the three, you just need to watch them play to observe this.
Given that he's (IMO) heavier (at worst, he's the same weight as Lawes), and slightly shorter, he's got an advantage in every area of the game, barring the lineout.

From what I can make out, Maro is a tall 6'5", he's literally 2cm shorter than Parling - look at 2cm on a ruler now, and tell me that he is significantly shorter than Geoff.

Does Itoje's supposed lack of height impede his lineout ability? Not from what I've seen.
Lawes will have a reach advantage in defensive mauls, but that's about it, and Maro doesn't do badly in that situation, does he?

I prefer my locks to be as short as possible - or, only as tall as they need to be... given the inherent disadvantage of being longer-limbed in most scenarios.
Whilst watching Maro, I haven't at any point thought to myself that he's deficient in the lineout.

 

[TheSaffycen]

You also need to point out the massive advantage you get at ruck time. IMO there isn't anyone in England better at clearing out a ruck than him. He is all muscle and has a better engine than both Parling and Lawes, carrying is just not even a comparison. Watch him bump off the Clermont blindside and say he will struggle at intl level.

 

[ZeroTwo]

You also need to point out the massive advantage you get at ruck time. IMO there isn't anyone in England better at clearing out a ruck than him. He is all muscle and has a better engine than both Parling and Lawes, carrying is just not even a comparison. Watch him bump off the Clermont blindside and say he will struggle at intl level.

For instance against Wasps when he picked up an entire ruck and moved it back a couple yards. 2 players, one on the ground.

Not saying he's in for sure for me, but things like that happen regularly enough watching him play for Sarries that I'm confident he could replicate it on a bigger stage.

 

[RedruthRFC]

You also need to point out the massive advantage you get at ruck time. IMO there isn't anyone in England better at clearing out a ruck than him. He is all muscle and has a better engine than both Parling and Lawes, carrying is just not even a comparison. Watch him bump off the Clermont blindside and say he will struggle at intl level.

I wouldn't dispute any of that, but if his carrying and rucking are so great, doesn't it suggest that he would be of most use to England at 6? That way, he gets to focus more on those areas without the heavy legs that come with playing lock and England get a superb option at the tail of the lineout. I don;t recall him bumping the Clermont 6, I assume you mean in last year's ECC when he was playing 6.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He does those things as a lock though.

If a lock combo of him and Launchbury can run a strong scrum and lineout, then him in the second row adds more to the team than at 6.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would rather we didn't fall into the Kvesic trap with Itojie and not give him any game time @ international level.

Kvesic could of had at least 10 or so caps by now, if management had trusted youngsters who have been performing at club level.

Age shouldn't be an issue, he has played in the champions cup @ 6 and lock, so I expect Eddie jones to look at him at both and decide where he might fit for England.