England Post-WC discussion

[Peat]

Yeah he's probably on better form and possibly a better player but he has virtually no international experience apart from a match over a year ago against the Barbarians

Yes.

Please consider what that says of my opinion of Burrell.

Tbh, in this case, international experience may not be worth as much as usual. If Jones is going to mix up the team, then international experience in terms of cohesion with your team mates and coach's plans is at more or less zero for everyone anyway. Experience of the game at that level of pace and physicality is also important, but as noted, the Super Dooper Cup is more important than the Saxons there by a long chalk.

Besides... if there's no one else, then needs must.

But I'd suggest Jones has a long history of playmaking 12s and we might be barking up the wrong tree here. If I was forced to put money on something happening, it would be Ford-Farrell.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Sam Hill has to start at 12.

Barritt is such a poor player.

Tuilagi is not a 12 and is not fit.

He might not be all singing and dancing but we need to look for the best English 12 in the premiership not a superhero. Hill with ford and JJ outside him would be fine starting the 6 nations.

 

[LUKE12]

Any opinions on Ollie Devoto playing for England?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Devoto is who I have been biging up for a while, I see him as Frans Steyn esque in his ability to play 10/12/13. I like him but needs more game time, which he isn't going to get atm. He has a great brain, can kick, big enough to truck up if needed, what isn't to like ?

Sam Hill is good but what at intl' level is he actually going to do ? IMO he wont be that physical or quick. Hopefully I'm wrong because it would perfectly set up the Slade/Hill partnership for club and England.

 

[LUKE12]

Devoto is who I have been biging up for a while, I see him as Frans Steyn esque in his ability to play 10/12/13. I like him but needs more game time, which he isn't going to get atm. He has a great brain, can kick, big enough to truck up if needed, what isn't to like ?

Sam Hill is good but what at intl' level is he actually going to do ? IMO he wont be that physical or quick. Hopefully I'm wrong because it would perfectly set up the Slade/Hill partnership for club and England.

Yeah Devoto really needs to be playing week in week out for Bath but he has Ford, Priestland, Eastmond and Joseph above him in the positions he plays in so he should probably move club to maximise his chance of playing for England

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Good lords, is that the time already?

He's probably the best 12 we could play, that's why. Let the argument recommence...

I think he is the answer there, just not now. Chucking him in to a position he hasn't played in years following a long lay off on the back of 3 club games would be madness akin to when Lancaster chucked a patently off colour and injured OF into the AIs. Totally unfair on the player, especially one of whom so much is expected.

Most of the names being bandied around - Eastmond, Burrell will never cut it. As an interim measure I'd go 36 outside Farrell.

 

[Peat]

It's a fair point that the timing is off, aye.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not sure if it's been posted already but the England u20s coach is going to be part time scrum coach for the senior side:
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/peel-takes-dual-sarries-and-england-scrum-roles/

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Devoto is who I have been biging up for a while, I see him as Frans Steyn esque in his ability to play 10/12/13. I like him but needs more game time, which he isn't going to get atm. He has a great brain, can kick, big enough to truck up if needed, what isn't to like ?

Don't worry, he still has plenty of potential to do a 12trees mk II. I've seen Devoto have a few brainfarts for Bath.

 

[Maverick1987]

Not sure if it's been posted already but the England u20s coach is going to be part time scrum coach for the senior side:
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/peel-takes-dual-sarries-and-england-scrum-roles/

Really interesting news . U20s scrum looked top quality but this is a huge step up . Must be highly rated or Sarries wouldn't be after him

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Devoto is who I have been biging up for a while, I see him as Frans Steyn esque in his ability to play 10/12/13. I like him but needs more game time, which he isn't going to get atm. He has a great brain, can kick, big enough to truck up if needed, what isn't to like ?

Sam Hill is good but what at intl' level is he actually going to do ? IMO he wont be that physical or quick. Hopefully I'm wrong because it would perfectly set up the Slade/Hill partnership for club and England.

Well Sam Hill is more physical than Devoto, barritt, Burrell and eastmond.

He has a good turn of pace so quicker than barritt and Burrell.

He has a good pass on him from what I've seen, so better again than barritt and Burrell.

Runs good lines and I don't really see any 12 in the uk better than him (EQ).

Tuilagi would be more physical but below par in every other area. Devoto isn't even starting for his club. Eastmond is too small for international rugby and barritt is just rubbish.

There is no other option really.

 

[Patchey]

Ok, so because I lead a really interesting life and a few people have wondered aloud about this, this is the current EPS according to the RFU website.

Brad Barritt
Kieran Brookes
Mike Brown
Danny Care
Dan Cole
Nick Easter
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Jamie George
Alex Goode
James Haskell
Jonathan Joseph
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Jonny May
Ben Morgan
Jack Nowell
Geoff Parling
Chris Robsahw
Henry Slade
Mako Vunnipola
Antony Watson
Rob Webber
Richard Wigglesworth
David Wilson
Tom Wood
Ben Youngs
Tom Youngs

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

The 11 changes don't include injury do they? So Slade, Brookes- anyone else?- get changed free from the quota.

Sam Hill atm seems like the only one of the 12 options not to have a glaring flaw.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

My only question with Hill is whether can play his same game at international level as he does at club. It's not unusual for guys who are smashing people for their clubs to come up short at international (Banahan, Hape, Tompkins, for example).

I'm a huge fan, though - would definitely have him as one of the front runners for the 12 shirt (and would be my first choice, as it stands - I'm firmly in the "Tuilagi for 12" camp though )

 

[Peat]

Hape hit people to be fair. Just he didn't do much else (occasional offload) and his defence left a little to be desire in terms of positioning. If Hill can be Hape with better vision, passing and kicking, he'll do well for himself.

12 is a viciously hard position for an attacker. You're getting double-tackled every time - there is a reason all of Tuilagi, Burrell and Barritt post more metres made at 13. I sometimes think a 12 who can distribute isn't necessary for the rest of the back line - it's necessary for the 12 to create that little bit of reasonable doubt that makes attacking at 12 that bit easier. Ditto the step. If Hill can break the gainline, do well in defence, and pass and kick accurately when it's on, he'll do. That's how low my ambitions are now!

 

[Patchey]

The 11 changes don't include injury do they? So Slade, Brookes- anyone else?- get changed free from the quota.

Sam Hill atm seems like the only one of the 12 options not to have a glaring flaw.

Yeah, you can name an injured player in the EPS then call in an injury replacement. Lancaster did it with Deacon on 2012.

Such an f***ed system at times!

I think going on what I've seen my changes so far would be:

Wigglesworth ---> Chudley / Simpson
Easter ---> Clifford
Wood ---> Kvesic
Parling ---> Itoje
Robshaw / Haskell ---> Billy Vunnipola
Webber ---> Taylor / LCD
Barritt ---> Daly
Goode ---> Cips

Probably some props but now sure who. Bring in Sam Hill as injury cover for Slade.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would change
Brad Barritt. -----> Eastmond/Hill/Manu
Kieran Brookes
Mike Brown
Danny Care
Dan Cole
Nick Easter ----> Billy V.
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Jamie George
Alex Goode -----> Daly
James Haskell
Jonathan Joseph
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes ------> Itojie
Joe Marler
Jonny May
Ben Morgan
Jack Nowell
Geoff Parling ------> Slater/Kitchener
Chris Robsahw ---> Maybe Clifford
Henry Slade -----> Cips (injury)
Mako Vunipola
Antony Watson
Rob Webber ---------> Hartley
Richard Wigglesworth ----> Simpson
David Wilson -------> Thomas
Tom Wood -----> Kvesic/Fraser
Ben Youngs
Tom Youngs

 

[Maverick1987]

Why would Billy V not be in the EPS ???

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why would Billy V not be in the EPS ???

Injury.

 

[Maverick1987]

Injury.

Ahhhh I thought injury replacement was temporary in The EPS so once Billy was fit again he would replace Easter