[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Duck a l'Orange]

Maybe lift Billy V?

And then he's the perfect 6 option. Kind of.

 

[j'nuh]

yep.

you need three good jumping options, i can't think of a team that doesn't run 2,4 and 6 jumpers (or there about).

Not saying don't have a third jumper, just that we don't need a classy one.

Looking at the lineout stats for the Six Nations, from our starting team, the second row took 26 lineouts, Robshaw took 10 lineouts and Haskell took 1. Like... I don't really see what needs fixing if we are going to pick a 6 for the sake of their lineout prowess. Two locks and Robshaw seems to work okay. Morgan jumps for Gloucester too, so you could even give him one a game to keep the opposition guessing.

 

[Peat]

Part two of the apology... : I wasn't particularly knocking Wood or Haskell, or Croft, just thinking about how our back row has always been quite devoid of carriers other than at number eight (in fact, I can think of a game against Wales when even the no. 8...), and they're obviously not the most effective in that area, which in part has been due to the quest for the perfect lineout technician- I exaggerate only slightly.

I'd agree it's been a problem, particularly with Wood, but what big carrying blindsides have been missing out as a consequence? Fearns has undergone too many injuries and I don't think Garvey's quick enough. Vunipola hasn't had the breakdown game to be a blindside until recently, ditto Waldrom doesn't have it. Itoje is considered too raw, Burgess has fallen foul to Lancaster's desperation at 12 more than his lineout ability imo.

I think Ewers is the one serious candidate who might claim to be hard done by this and he's only been one for, what, last two years? Big carrying sixes seem to be rare in the English game right now.

Am I the only one who thinks that, with two good jumpers in the second row, a top jumping 6 is a fairly minor asset, not absolutely essential?

Somewhere in between. You'd have to have a really good reason to ignore one as a rule; most teams don't ignore it. I'd also add that it's not unusual to see the foremost back row jumper taking more ball than the secondary lock jumper.

edit: The lineout last 6N wasn't exactly an example of best practice.

 

[yaboyjj]

If Haskell were to effectively lose out to Morgan or Kvesic, I would certainly lose no sleep over the loss of a lineout option, since he pretty much isn't one.
The 6n was not great because we had an inexperienced lock in Kruis making his full debut, alongside Attwood- who is not exactly in the springy/athletic mold of Mattfield/Charteris etc. To me, Lawes, Launch and Robshaw provide enough options- provided the hooker can throw a good dart.

For anyone who watched the Championship game earlier, it was obvious to see what a good inside centre should be doing (Toomua) to create space on the outside, which is just possessing a bit of threat ball-in-hand yourself (which does not necessarily mean you need to weigh in excess of 105kg), running hard and straight and committing defenders whilst being able to throw good, crisp, well timed passes to the outside man- thus creating/utilizing the overlap. I would trust Slade to do this better than Burgess/Burrell- certainly the awareness/passing bit of it, this is imo all Joseph needs to make the outside break or for the winger to have a bit of space to beat their man. To shoehorn second rate bosh merchants into the team just for the sake of it is soul destroying- we have plenty of first rate (well int quality at least) bulky players available to play on the wing if we need truck-it-up options coming infield.
If it means putting Farrell at fly to offer more def presence in midfield- then so be it, I would trust Farrell/Slade/Joseph to defend better than, say, Farrell/36/Burrell.

 

[TobesHodges]

Why Tom wood will play..

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/features/clark-primed-body-and-mind/

Maybe this will persuade the haters. Lol no.
Does this look to anyone like they're thinking about selecting him, so they're trying to soften the blow? Or just the kind of fluff that a team's media chucks out on random players? It does mention "disciplinary" issues- calling him breaking Rob Hawkins arm "extremely unsavoury"- but always in the context of reform. Idk, I'm probably over reading it...

 

[ratsapprentice]

England's media guys are about as independent as in-house media departments get, they get an inside track and don't publish stuff liable to irritate the coaches, but this isn't the same as Lancaster going out of his way to mention him in an interview.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

England's media guys are about as independent as in-house media departments get, they get an inside track and don't publish stuff liable to irritate the coaches, but this isn't the same as Lancaster going out of his way to mention him in an interview.

No, true I suppose. There's normally pretty regular articles like this anyway- checking the last week or so Binny and Marland Yarde have had them (but they're both potential starters )
Clark doesn't inspire such a vitriolic (I can understand why) response in me- I didn't really follow rugby in 2012, his father taught at my school, etc. If he's changed (as a number of articles have claimed- and I think he has), should he be considered for selection? He seems very humble, self-aware, from most footage of him I've seen recently; one thing that sticks out is how little he celebrates his tries (a handshake with a team mate is the most I've seen).

 

[Peat]

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/features/clark-primed-body-and-mind/

Maybe this will persuade the haters. Lol no.
Does this look to anyone like they're thinking about selecting him, so they're trying to soften the blow? Or just the kind of fluff that a team's media chucks out on random players? It does mention "disciplinary" issues- calling him breaking Rob Hawkins arm "extremely unsavoury"- but always in the context of reform. Idk, I'm probably over reading it...

I think you're overreading it. There's a long old time before we get started and lots of media to fill to gee people up with. Most players will get somebuzz at some point.

And, no, won't persuade me, and not a lot could. Two reasons

a) While clearly an able enough player to deserve a shot at it, I don't think he has enough points of difference over Wood/Robshaw to jump ahead of their experience, and if he gets the chance, can't see him ever surpassing their level. So I think giving him caps would be a waste and would prefer to see players with longer future, different skillsets and higher ceilings given a go ahead of him, even if that's not very fair given his domestic performances.

b) I will never lose the feeling that he was nowhere near adequately punished for what he did and as such, given that there is an element of moral judgement in giving a player England caps these days, never stop feeling he simply shouldn't be considered to begin with.

 

[ZeroTwo]

If somebody makes a break, I want to be there on their shoulder

Really poor choice of words.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think you're overreading it. There's a long old time before we get started and lots of media to fill to gee people up with. Most players will get somebuzz at some point.

And, no, won't persuade me, and not a lot could. Two reasons

a) While clearly an able enough player to deserve a shot at it, I don't think he has enough points of difference over Wood/Robshaw to jump ahead of their experience, and if he gets the chance, can't see him ever surpassing their level. So I think giving him caps would be a waste and would prefer to see players with longer future, different skillsets and higher ceilings given a go ahead of him, even if that's not very fair given his domestic performances.

b) I will never lose the feeling that he was nowhere near adequately punished for what he did and as such, given that there is an element of moral judgement in giving a player England caps these days, never stop feeling he simply shouldn't be considered to begin with.

While I will never really argue with someone's opinion on whether a player should be banned and for how long etc clarks playing ability surpasses wood and Haskell.

Clark is a really good player and if he hadn't had his disciple issues he'd be the 6 many want (although he really is a 7).

 

[Peat]

While I will never really argue with someone's opinion on whether a player should be banned and for how long etc clarks playing ability surpasses wood and Haskell.

Clark is a really good player and if he hadn't had his disciple issues he'd be the 6 many want (although he really is a 7).

Can't say I've seen it and I'm curious as to what you think Clark does that much better that would translate to the England team.

If he could be more consistent at international level than those two, that would be a pretty major plus point in fairness. But not sure there's any way of knowing that.

 

[Patchey]

Agree with Peat on his original points and the follow up.

Other than maybe fitness, I don't see the point of difference between Clark and the incumbents.

Really poor choice of words.

Snorted with laughter well done.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Clark rhymes with fart
I know that is silly
But he should be on his kart.
Instead of playing with Lancasters willy

I ain't making it up.
He is thick in the head.
He plays like a dump.
And should've been given a red.

Poor Itojie and Ewers cry
They should be in Denver.
Whilst Clark is giving Lancaster a creampie
This is a poem I certainly need to remember.


Jokes aside.

TBf if he hadn't do what he did I wouldn't mind at all him being with England really he covers 7 well but I just can't forget what he did.

 

[SelimNiai]

^ I'll have what he's having

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Really poor choice of words.

Positive rep for you, that was brilliant

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Clark rhymes with fart
I know that is silly
But he should be on his kart.
Instead of playing with Lancasters willy

I ain't making it up.
He is thick in the head.
He plays like a dump.
And should've been given a red.

Poor Itojie and Ewers cry
They should be in Denver.
Whilst Clark is giving Lancaster a creampie
This is a poem I certainly need to remember.


Jokes aside.

TBf if he hadn't do what he did I wouldn't mind at all him being with England really he covers 7 well but I just can't forget what he did.

Did you get a A+ grade at school in poetry ?

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Positive rep for you, that was brilliant

+1 on that, deep belly laugh. As for Tigs... I'm just going to ignore that
I'm just interested in people's opinions on Clark's ability, ignoring as far as possible his previous offences- mainly because Lancaster doesn't seem to care about them.

Do we think Twelvetrees will ever find consistent form? At face value he seems like the perfect option- a decent carrier as well as distributor, pretty solid in defence, scores tries (his England ones haven't been pretty, but they're still there) and can goal kick if absolutely necessary. Shame then, that's he's inconsistent- on form he'd be my preferred choice until Slade's ready to take over.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

To think if 12trees and any one of our 9s could hit top form and stay there, we could have a pretty good set of backs. Just think, potentially 3 years or so of consistancy going into this world cup rather than our current situation where we still don't have a bolted on 12 with BB being the safe option rather than the best one and 9 just crossing fingers and hoping they don't **** up suddenly.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

To think if 12trees and any one of our 9s could hit top form and stay there, we could have a pretty good set of backs. Just think, potentially 3 years or so of consistancy going into this world cup rather than our current situation where we still don't have a bolted on 12 with BB being the safe option rather than the best one and 9 just crossing fingers and hoping they don't **** up suddenly.

Twelvetrees(on form)-Tuilagi, Twelvetrees-Joseph. Beautiful combinations both. Kicking, carrying, running threats, defence, distribution, pace. Centre combinations for every occasion